--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: I'm Daniel Pollack Pelsner.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I teach English and theater at Portland State University, and I'm the author of Lin-Manuel Miranda, The Education of an Artist.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: How much time have you spent in the last several years thinking about Hamilton?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Feels like that meme about how often do you think about the Roman Empire? Daily. Kind of hard to avoid this phenomenon for the past 10 years, but the musical is 10, of course, and the streaming version of Hamilton is 5, but now that's coming to theaters for the first time.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And that's why we have an excuse to talk about how this musical feels different in 2025 than it did in 2015. Your thoughts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Hamilton has these two acts. And I felt like we got to live in Act One Hamilton for a while, where we had this hope of a country that was welcoming immigrants into a coalition that was going to dream of a better future. And for the last few years, I feel like we've been living in Act Two, Hamilton, which is, is it all going to fall apart? Are we going to become so polarized that we end up in a state of political violence? And is everything that got built before going to collapse?
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Where did this even come from before we talk about the politics?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Lin-Manuel Miranda, 28 years old, won a Tony Award for his first musical, In the Heights, and takes a vacation in 2008. He's a fast reader so he brings along one really big book to sustain him on vacation which is Ron Chernow's biography of Alexander Hamilton and as he is lying on a hammock in the beach above Playa del Carmen he tells me that he has these like three insights.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: One is he didn't know that there was a founding father who was born outside the continental U.S. in the Caribbean. He was sort of our proto-immigrant story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean really came here on a scholarship to get his education and ended up shaping the world.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And Hamilton's own journey from impoverished orphanhood on this little island to becoming an architect of the American government reminded Lin-Manuel of his own father who was born in Puerto Rico, got a scholarship to come to NYU and became an important political figure in New York and national politics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So he starts to envision the parallels between Hamilton's story and the world he lives in.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And his second insight is that Hamilton's story is a hip-hop story. It's got everything. It's got sex. It's got politics. It's got genius.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The rise of a wordsmith from humble beginnings to making a name for himself and turning his own impoverishment into success is a story that mirrors the 90s hip-hop artists that Lin-Manuel grew up loving, Biggie and Tupac especially, and that Hamilton shared their ultimate faith of pissing people off and getting shot.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And then the third insight was that this show, Lin-Manuel originally conceived of as a concept album, like musicals like... That would be sung through on a record.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he got started and he premiered what became the first number of the show at the invitation of the White House in the East Room, 2009.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: I'm actually working on a hip-hop album. It's a concept album about the life of someone I think embodies hip-hop Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton. You laugh, but it's true!
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And over the next six years, built up the whole arc of Hamilton's life with his collaborators and it opened in 2015.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: How big did this show get? When was peak Hamilton? I think it's coming past, yeah? Well, it just keeps getting bigger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, it started as a kind of, I would say, elite cachet phenomenon where celebrities and political leaders were bragging that they could get what were scalped with very expensive tickets.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: The best seat in the house at current right now will take you back almost $900 a pop. I paid $725 for my ticket.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the musical is also doubling the number of $10 tickets it's making available via same-day lotteries.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: But by the time the cast recording came out in the fall of 2016, it became a mass phenomenon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the album was on top of the Billboard charts.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And this week, Hamilton became the first cast recording to spend 500 weeks on the Billboard 200 record charts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Taking Broadway by storm captivating the entire country winning tons of awards turned musical haters into diehard fans It was even on top of the rap charts
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: The show won all the awards the Tonys Grammy Pulitzer Prize and it became a conversation beyond even Broadway geeks like me so that people who just cared about American culture more broadly and how we tell American stories had an opinion about the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, now let's talk about how, for a while, it felt like we were living in the Act One of Hamilton.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: It was pretty intimately connected, Sean. So not only was the White House the venue for the initial performance of the first number.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is definitely the room where it happened, Right here.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: But Obama's own speeches helped to create a kind of template for some of the show's musical numbers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Lin-Manuel loved the way that Will.I.Am of the Black Eyed Peas set Obama's Yes We Can speech to music and turned it into a music video.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Yes we can to opportunity and prosperity. Miranda thought that would be a cool way to musicalize George Washington's farewell address.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he even got Obama to record a cover of George Washington's number one last time after he left the White House.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: The faults of incompetent abilities will be consigned to oblivion, as I myself must soon be, to the mansions of rest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it was pretty intimately connected to the world of the Obamas, even as it had a lot of shout outs and parallels to earlier historical and musical eras.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: We should point out, though, that it wasn't just the left who enjoyed the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Obama famously said, In fact, Hamilton, I'm pretty sure, is the only thing that Dick Cheney and I agree on.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: That's true. Dick and Lynn Cheney both praised the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: George W. Bush likened himself to Hamilton and a wonderful documentary about the musical and the Clintons and the Bidens were coming too.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: So it became the show to see and a show into which a lot of people could read their vision of America, whether that was a kind of more traditional narrative of a country where you could pull yourself up by your bootstraps and a sort of, you know, vision of a meritocracy, or whether that was even a slightly more radical vision where Black hip hop artists are quoting from the Black Lives Matter movement, trying to make this... Black Lives Matter a movement, not a moment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is not a moment, it's the movement. Calling for people to rise up and using the kind of counter-establishment language of hip-hop to envision a new America.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: How does it turn and when does it turn?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lin-Manuel Miranda had done fundraisers for the Democratic Party in the run-up to the 2016 election.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: But the real tipping point came, I think, after the election when Vice President elect Mike Pence came to see the show on Broadway.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Urand, along with his producers and director, decided to write a speech for the actor playing Aaron Burr at the time, Brandon Victor Dixon, to give after the show, in which Dixon said to Mike Pence, who was sort of leaving the lobby at the time, that... We, sir, we are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: But we truly hope that this show has inspired them to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even that feels kind of dated. Like that anyone thought that that would work. Right.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Perhaps that is the fantasy of musical theater that we can all come together for a curtain call.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Pence was fine with it, but the next morning Trump started tweeting that the cast had been very rude to Pence, that Hamilton was overrated, that Hamilton needed to apologize.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And in the wake of that, the show started to get security threats from MAGA supporters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One even interrupted a show in Chicago.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And from then on, it really became the kind of counter-Trump show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So then the latest chapter in the saga is that Hamilton was supposed to have an upcoming performance at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: But after Trump got rid of all of the Democratic members of the Kennedy Center's board, Miranda and his producers pulled their show, saying that they didn't want Hamilton to appear at a Trump puppet venue.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has Trump seen Hamilton?
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Do we know? Not that I know of.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think his favorite show is Evita.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: A show that has nothing to do with the rise of populist fascism and stardom in service of authoritarian government.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was a joke.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: I like jokes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has the effectiveness of the message of Hamilton dwindled over time?
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Back when I was just a little baby boy from Queens, I was just a founding father from 1893.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whether it's people of color playing these white colonists or not, it's still a story about white colonists and trying to sympathize with them.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: I'm not doing that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Some guy with an undercut just called me soy boy.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: Oh, don't worry, Greg. It's a nice, safe space where you don't have to pretend to like Hamilton.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I like Hamilton. Sure you do.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: We all do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I just wonder, like, over time, has Hamilton come to feel kind of cringed people? Too hopeful? Too in love with the United States and the American project?
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: I mean, man, the things that feels most dated about it to me, Sean, is the notion that having a sex scandal would ruin your political prospects.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But when I return to this show, what really strikes me is that it's a tragedy. It's set up from the start of how did this horrible thing happen, which is that one friend and political rival murdered another one.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And that tragedy hangs over the whole show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so when I see it, I guess I see less this kind of celebration of America and more a sense of how quickly the American dream can fracture.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: One thing I keep remembering, Sean, is that the show starts with a question. How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman Dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the Caribbean By providence, impoverished and squalor Grow up to be a hero and a scholar
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it ends with a question Mind eyes who tells your story
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And I don't think this show provides a single answer to those questions I think it leaves those as open questions, and they're questions that are open for us in America today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lin-Manuel Miranda, The Education of an Artist. That's the name of Daniel Pollack Pelsner's new book.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: It's out next week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hamilton is in theaters right now if you're looking to kill three hours with some open questions about America this weekend.
--:-- Daniel Pollack Pelsner: And maybe Hamilton isn't cringe, But some Obamacore culture certainly is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll discuss next on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Good night.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Sean Rameswaram from here with Nate Jones, who's a featured writer at New York Magazine and Vulture.
--:-- Nate Jones: Yes. Yes, indeed. It was last August 2024, which, you know, only a year ago, but perhaps longer than that emotionally.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Right. And what exactly is Obamacore for those who have never heard the term?
--:-- Nate Jones: Obamacore is the pop culture and the general culture that was sort of spurred by Obama's election.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was an outpouring of positivity and a belief that the future would always be as good as the present and a belief in institutions and just kind of a general idealism and a sincerity and an earnestness that was kind of born out of the sense that, yeah, the arc of history was always bending towards justice.
--:-- Nate Jones: And we'd kind of arrived at this sort of key marking point and things are just going to keep getting better from there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And obviously, you know, that didn't happen.
--:-- Nate Jones: And so now when we look back on it with the distance of 10 to 15 years, I think it causes a lot of hurt feelings and mixed emotions and embarrassment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And is Hamilton like the apotheosis of Obamacore?
--:-- Nate Jones: Yeah, I mean, I think Hamilton in many ways has become the single cultural object that most stands in for the Obama era as a whole.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A few weeks ago, people started sending around an old 2016 Onion headline that said, DNC aiming to reconnect with working class Americans with new Hamilton inspired Lena Dunham web series.
--:-- Nate Jones: Which, you know, it became a standard for this, you know, proudly cosmopolitan, optimistic, triumphant era in American life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What else do we think of when we think of Obamacore? What else fits into the genre?
--:-- Nate Jones: Last summer when we wrote the list, we had 100 things on the list. 100?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The original was 200 or 300.
--:-- Nate Jones: Give us the top 10 in your heart.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, the top 10.
--:-- Nate Jones: Millennial Pink, Girl Bosses, Stomp and Holler Bands, Glee, Louis C.K., Female Ghostbusters, Taylor Swift's 1989 era, the word mansplaining, the TV show Transparent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the 10th one is an Instagram filter of a woman with bangs drawing a mustache on her finger and putting it in front of her face.
--:-- Nate Jones: Is that like definitely like a Nate Jones, like number one right there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was a late cut.
--:-- Nate Jones: That was the 101st one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How many of these things are you comfortable calling cringe now?
--:-- Nate Jones: Not of those 10, but like the whole 100.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, a lot of it is.
--:-- Nate Jones: I mean, it's hard, right? Because a lot of this stuff, you don't want to write the whole thing off, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like Moonlight is Obamacore in a way, right? And Moonlight is an amazing film.
--:-- Nate Jones: Moonlight holds up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Nate Jones: You know, and a lot of the music, I'd say a lot of the music really holds up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, some of those Miley Cyrus songs from the Bangers era, they hold up.
--:-- Nate Jones: I came in like a wrecking ball Taylor Swift songs you know 1989 good album
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is something that we seen recently I don't know if you remember, but a few weeks ago, there was a whole week of discourse about the Edward Sharp and the Magnetic Zero song, Home.
--:-- Nate Jones: Alabama, Arkansas, I show love my mom-pop Not the way that I do love you
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And people are saying, like, this is actually really bad. Worst song ever made.
--:-- Nate Jones: I would respect him more if he just went ahead and started the yoga sex cult.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He clearly wants to.
--:-- Nate Jones: Primarily, it is guilty of sounding like something that was composed to be played while someone is being euthanized.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's true of most pop music.
--:-- Nate Jones: Yes, yes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think, you know, and in this discourse, a lot of people made the point that like, right, we have what's called the nostalgia cycle.
--:-- Nate Jones: And it kind of is generally like, you know, when something's a year ahead of its time, it looks really cool.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When something's a year behind its time, it's kind of you're kind of tired of it.
--:-- Nate Jones: When something is 20 years behind the times, it gets cool again.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But when something is 10 to 15 years, that is kind of the nadir of the coolness in the nostalgia cycle right like we are already seeing people starting to bring back the early to mid-2000s right like you look at saltburn that's very much nostalgia for the mid-2000s so we probably are like five to ten years before someone tries to bring the Obamacare stuff back but until then yeah it's kind of just it's people in their late 30s thinking back on the culture of their early 20s.
--:-- Nate Jones: And reassessing it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And reassessing it, yes.
--:-- Nate Jones: And then I think the thing that specifically works with Obamacore is that there was this major thing that happened at the end of it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it broke a lot of people's brains because one of the fundamental elements of Obamacore was a confidence.
--:-- Nate Jones: It was a confidence that the culture was on our side and that things would keep getting better.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then that didn't happen.
--:-- Nate Jones: That was proven decisively wrong, you know, in 2016.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then And elements of Obamacore, I would say, still sort of survived the election of Trump in 2016, the first election.
--:-- Nate Jones: You know, I think a lot of the social elements really sort of found their full flower, right? The social movements that came along with Obama's election, if anything, they were heightened, right? Trump is when we saw Me Too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, that is when we saw a wider acceptance of the Black Lives Matter movement and everything.
--:-- Nate Jones: But then I think now in the second Trump era, even those social movements have kind of, I don't want to say died, like they've been killed, right? Like there has been a decisive conservative backlash that has attempted quite successfully to snuff that out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so everything is kind of being reincest.
--:-- Nate Jones: In preparation for this interview, I was thinking about how Chance the Rapper is kind of Obamacore.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A hundred percent.
--:-- Nate Jones: Or like really Obamacore.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He is one of the defining artists.
--:-- Nate Jones: Because here's a rapper whose father literally worked with Barack Obama, but also just exuded positivity and kindness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He came from Chicago.
--:-- Nate Jones: And it just reminded me of this video of him performing at the White House for their holiday, maybe tree lighting ceremony.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sasha Obama's there singing the lyrics to Sunday Candy, which is a song, I should add, about going to church with your grandmother.
--:-- Nate Jones: Like, not exactly left-right stuff here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Nate Jones: But everyone's smiling.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It feels, like, pure and decent.
--:-- Nate Jones: And it doesn't feel like something we should be embarrassed of.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If anything, it feels like a president celebrating the arts and the holidays and family and religion and, like, love.
--:-- Nate Jones: And you just wonder if we could get back there one day.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I agree exactly what you were saying about Chance the Rapper.
--:-- Nate Jones: Like you mentioned purity and I think that was definitely part of it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like there was a longing to go back to this kind of purity of childhood in a lot of it.
--:-- Nate Jones: Like you look at Chance, you know, rapping over the theme song to Arthur, the children's TV show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day when you're walking down the street Everybody that you meet Has an original point of view
--:-- Nate Jones: There was a sense that like, oh, if we could all kind of just embrace our inner child, that is what we all need.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And obviously that has definitely kind of gone away.
--:-- Nate Jones: But yeah, no, I mean, yes, I would love to be hopeful that we can have an era like that again and that it won't just all be nihilism and cynicism.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nate Jones you can check out the big Obamacore package he worked on at Vulture.com
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Avishay Artsy made our show today
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jolie Myers edited
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Laura Bullard checked the facts
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: David Tatasciore mixed the rest of our team includes Patrick Boyd Denise Guerra Hari Mawagdi Miles Bryan Peter Balanon Rosen Devin Schwartz Rebecca Ibarra Danielle Hewitt and Kelly Wessinger who joined us this week welcome Kelly
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: we use music by Breakmaster Cylinder Amin Al-Assadis our supervising editor
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Miranda Kennedy's our executive producer
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Noel King is in the middle of a forgotten spot in the Caribbean and today explained is distributed by WNYC
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The show is a part of the Vox Media podcast network
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can check out more of our shows at podcasts.voxmedia.com
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you can listen to this show without ads by signing up to support us at vox.com slash members.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you guys were compiling your list, did you determine whether or not Vox was Obamacore?
--:-- Nate Jones: Vox is 100% Obamacore, and the only reason we did not put it in was to be good corporate siblings.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Vox is the ultimate of Obamacore.
--:-- Nate Jones: It is the element of Obamacore that is, it's a culture by and for rule followers, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's kids who sat in the front of the class.
--:-- Nate Jones: It's people who thought that we could get a better future by having the right charts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I'm not saying that insultingly.
--:-- Nate Jones: Like I believed it too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I thought the right chart would make a difference.
--:-- Nate Jones: And, you know, it turns out it didn't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm sending this to Ezra.
--:-- Nate Jones: Thank you.