--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Oscars are this Sunday, and of all the films nominated, only one of them was filmed in secret. It's called The Seed of the Sacred Fig. It's about an Iranian family at odds with each other over the country's repressive policies. It was shot in Iran. It's got Iranian actors. It's got an Iranian director. It's very much about Iran, but it's Germany's submission to the Oscars.
--:-- Noel King: The director of this movie, Mohamed Rasulaf, is in exile, but we caught up with him in New York City to ask him what it's like to make a movie secretly and why Germany is repping this super Iranian movie.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're doing the Oscars. Today explains style. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform.
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--:-- Noel King: You are listening to Today Explained. I'm Mohamed Rasloof. You can tell me Mohamed. That's just about all the English we got out of the seed of the Sacred Figs director. The rest of our conversation was done through a translator who was with him in his New York City hotel.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: The power structure in Iran, the Islamic Republic, is a despotic and repressive regime. And it has implemented widespread censorship on all parts of the society. It does not allow any voices that are critical of it to be heard. Voices like myself who make critical movies. And so this is why the film had to be made in secret because we are trying to get our voices out and they're not allowing the voices to be heard.
--:-- Noel King: When people in our audience hear that this movie was filmed in secret in Iran, they might imagine, oh, there were a lot of interior shots, you know scenes set inside buildings scenes set inside apartments whatever it might be that's how you film a movie secretly but I was surprised when watching it that there are indeed shots of you know this family that the movie is about eating dinner outside of a restaurant you know there's there's shots of people driving around tehran how do you do that secretly.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: At first, we had limited equipment and we had to be inside and have interior shots. But gradually, we learned how to be seen and how to have the exterior shots. It's like wearing clothes. You try to protect yourself that way. The underground cinema in Iran tries not to be seen and tries to have films that are not impacted in their quality by the fact that they are underground.
--:-- Noel King: This movie, The Seed of the Sacred Fig, it follows a family being torn apart. A father who's part of the sort of establishment in Tehran and his supportive wife. And then their two daughters who are unhappy with the system and eager to join young women protesting in the streets. And it's very much set during the Masa Amini protests from a few years ago.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: As you said yourself, this is a story of a family who live together, whose members live together, but they think very differently from one another. This could be a difference of generations. It could be the fight between tradition and modernity. But the women's movement in Iran is very old and it's not only contained to the women's life freedom movement.
--:-- Noel King: Where were you during those protests? In the year 2022, it was the last time that I was arrested and I had been in prison when the movement happened. It was a few months into my arrest and I was following the events of the movement in prison.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: What were you in prison for? For my previous films and for what I had written on social media about social and political events.
--:-- Noel King: And that's why you not only filmed this movie secretly but you were also directing it remotely. You weren't allowed to make a movie in Iran so you were never on the set of your own movie. How does that even work?
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: The most important complication was how I was going to direct from a distance. I was constantly watching a monitor when I was afar, and the monitor was on set. And I also had two assistants who were present on set. One of them was my liaison with the actors, with the artistic team, and the other was my liaison with the technical team.
--:-- Noel King: And I was communicating through sound. Everything that was happening, I could hear, and I could tell them what to do through sound. And technically, it was a little difficult, but we got used to it as we went on. And in the end, we ended up having a very good and close collaboration.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: And some of the scenes actually, it worked better. But the other complication I had was how to keep my focus. I was under a lot of pressure. I was really stressed out. And at any moment, anything could have happened. So we were always in a state of in-between hope and hopelessness.
--:-- Noel King: Now you very well may win an Oscar for this film that you shot in secret remotely in Iran. But of course, the country that wins this Oscar, if it indeed wins, is Germany. Why is it Germany?
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: Yes, of course. Well, when I was in jail and I was released, my family was in Germany. And I no longer could work in Iran, I no longer could make films, and I decided that I had to leave because otherwise I had to go to jail and play the role of the victim, and I did not want to be a victim of the censorship.
--:-- Noel King: So I decided to leave Iran through the mountains through a very, very difficult trip, and after I got to a neighboring country, I contacted the German consulate and they knew that my family was in Germany. So they helped me travel to Germany.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: And in addition to that, my post-production all happened in Germany. The editing process and my actors, after they left Iran, they also went to Germany and they started living there. The budget of the film also partly came from Germany.
--:-- Noel King: But there is also more meaning to this for me. People who chose to nominate this film on behalf of Germany to the Oscars gave a very strong message to the other filmmakers outside and that is that there is always going to be hope for filmmakers who are working under a lot of pressure.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: And I also think that the film has a similar fate to my own fate. And that is because I'm an Iranian. I'm traveling with German documents. And so is the film. The film was made in Iran, but it is now traveling around with German identity and documents. I'm going to travel to the German people.
--:-- Noel King: Mohamed, thank you so much for joining us. I'm not in the academy, but I hope you win an Oscar on Sunday. Thank you.
--:-- Mohamed Rasloof: Thanks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mohamed Rasulaf, you can call him Mohamed. His translator was Sheda Dayani. The movie's The Seat of the Sacred Fig, and it's nominated for an Oscar for Best International Film. But some say Best International Film is the messiest category at the Oscars. We're going to find out why when we're back on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Oscar goes to Sean Ramos for him Today Explained here with Nate Jones from Vulture where earlier this month you published a piece titled Is There Any Way to Fix Oscar's International Film Category? What's wrong with it, Nate?
--:-- Nate Jones: So there are a couple things wrong with the international film category. So basically, how the international film category works is that the award does not go to a director. It does not go to a filmmaker. It goes to a country. And so the way it works is that every country in the world submits one film.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So dozens, sometimes hundreds of countries, they submit their films to the Oscars and you only get one. So if there's two great films from Switzerland in one year, it doesn't matter. Only one.
--:-- Nate Jones: The second big issue is that the people deciding who submits these films to the Oscars are not Academy members. They are often artists, but often government ministers from overseas governments.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so one of the things you quite often see in the best international film race is that any film that is sort of remotely critical of certain governments from certain countries just have 0% chance of getting it.
--:-- Nate Jones: Unless, as we are seeing this year, they can kind of get rescued in a way by just sort of the lucky happenstance of being co-produced by a country that is not the film they are set in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that is what's happened with Seat of the Sacred Fig, where, you know, they're quite lucky. I was talking to an Oscar strategist last week that they said, you know, the Academy is super duper lucky that that film had a German production company so that it was able to be submitted by Germany.
--:-- Nate Jones: Because it would have been just a terrible look if this very well acclaimed film with this amazing story behind it just couldn't get nominated for the Oscars because it was too critical of its own government. Like, that's a bad look.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so some of the issues we're talking about here include that countries can only submit one movie. Who decides which movie that is?
--:-- Nate Jones: There's also kind of the nagging question of does it make sense to identify specific films with specific countries anymore? Like as we're seeing with Seat of the Sacred Fig, it is an Iranian and German co-production.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's an amazing film that wasn't submitted by India called All We Imagines Light. That was an Indian-French co-production. Amelia Perez is a film that, you know, takes place in Mexico, has an international cast, but was filmed in France. So it is the French submission.
--:-- Nate Jones: Are you English? No, I'm not English. Why? No, because you are pretty.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The modern world of cinema is so blurred in terms of international boundaries that sort of pinpointing a specific film and saying this specific film belongs to this specific country doesn't always make sense.
--:-- Nate Jones: This is an issue that's come up in the past, I want to say, like 15 years in response to another problem that they used to have, which was that films had to take place in the language of the submitting country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, if you make a film about immigrants in, say, a European country and it is mostly told in the language of the country that they came from, suddenly that movie is not eligible to be nominated.
--:-- Nate Jones: They got rid of that rule in the late 2000s, which I think was a good change to make. But then now downstream of that, we have this other kind of weird situation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know the Oscars, the Grammys, all these big award shows, they do institute change when there's a big enough controversy. You know, the Oscars have gotten a lot of flack for like women directors not getting nominated. And now they're trying to do better.
--:-- Nate Jones: The Grammys have gotten a lot of heat for not being diverse enough. And now they're adding lots of diversity to their academy. Academy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has there not been a big enough controversy in the international film category to, you know, institute some changes here or have there been some over the years?
--:-- Nate Jones: It's interesting. I think one of the things that we are seeing is a result of the reforms that the Academy made to their membership.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you remember in the wake of Oscars So White, the Academy really expanded how many people it invited per year. I think it's now about half of the membership has been invited since 2016.
--:-- Nate Jones: And if you remember the headlines for them expanding the membership, it was, we are going to get a lot more women in and we're going to get a lot more people of color in. And then kind of in a little asterisk below them, it was, and we will also get a lot more international voters in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But as we've seen in the results from the past decade or so the international voters are the ones who have had the biggest most obvious effect where it is now sort of no longer a surprise that a foreign language film would get nominated for best picture in fact this year we have two nominated for best picture for the first time ever just because there's so many more international voters that has kind of increased the salience of the international film category where it used to be that category was kind of a little sidebar to the main competition and now increasingly what we're seeing is films that are competing in international film. They are competing all across the ballot.
--:-- Nate Jones: You know, Emilia Perez, the French submission, led the field with 13 nominations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hello, very nice to meet you. I'd like to know about sex change operations.
--:-- Nate Jones: I see, I see, I see. Men to woman, a woman to men. Men to woman. From penis to vagina.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as we saw last year, not getting selected doesn't doom you. There was a little controversy last year over Justine Trieste's Anatomy Vefaille, which was a very popular, critically acclaimed French film, won the Palme d'Or, but was not selected as the French submission.
--:-- Nate Jones: You complain about the life that you chose. You are not a victim. Not at all. Your generosity conceals something dirtier and meaner.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there was a lot of scuttlebutt over why that was. People think it was because the director criticized Emmanuel Macron in her Palme d'Or accepted speech. But anyway, it wasn't selected. And that kind of turned out to not really matter much.
--:-- Nate Jones: It still got nominated for Best Picture. It got nominated for Best Director at one screenplay. So, you know, it still did very well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in general yeah what we are seeing is like the best international film category is kind of like a handhold on a rock ledge And you know you start from that and then you kind of move up into these other categories
--:-- Nate Jones: I'm all of a sudden remembering when Parasite won Best Picture. And the winner is a movie from South Korea. What the hell was that all about? The once and current once again president actually had some thoughts about it. We got enough problems with South Korea with trade. On top of it, they give them the best movie of the year. Was it good? I don't know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And said that Hollywood had lost its way if a foreign movie were winning Best Picture. Did he have a point?
--:-- Nate Jones: It's funny. I'll put it this way. That opinion is certainly shared by some old guard members of Hollywood. And they make the point that, you know, every country kind of has its own Oscars, right? France has the Césars, Spain has the Goyas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, the Césars and the Goyas don't give out all their awards to American and British films. So they're like, these countries have their own awards. Why can't the Oscars be for American films?
--:-- Nate Jones: And I understand that. And it is a debate that has happened, honestly, throughout Oscar history. It goes back as far as, you know, the 1940s, when you would have British films.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I believe it was Laurence Olivier's Hamlet won Best Picture in the late 1940s. For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come when we have shuffled off this mortal coil.
--:-- Nate Jones: And the winner, Hamlet, J. Arthur Wright, two cities came. And you saw very similar complaints where people said, you know, how dare they? You know, we help them win the war and then their movies come over and steal best picture from us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is a debate that has been going on for a while. But what I say when people bring that complaint up to me, my point is that I don't think it diminishes the Oscars to include the best films from world cinema.
--:-- Nate Jones: I think it enhances them. I think it sort of adds to the reputation that like, no, this is the big one. Like this is the World Cup of awards ceremonies.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think that only makes the power of the Oscar even more strong.
--:-- Nate Jones: Hmm. Okay, well, it doesn't sound like there's going to be too much dramatic change in the best picture category anytime soon. But if we were to rejigger best international film to function better, what could we do? What are the options?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think there are a couple things you can do. The main argument the Academy has for keeping the one country, one film rule is that they are kind of worried, understandably, that voters would get like very Eurocentric, that you just have two films from Italy, two films from France, and maybe, you know, one film from Taiwan.
--:-- Nate Jones: One solution that I thought of maybe was that you know we already have there's an academy committee it is a self-selected committee of people who have worked in international films and they are the ones who narrow down you know the 80 90 submissions every year into a 15 film shortlist and so I say you know why not put those people in charge of also determining what the best film from each country would be it sounds so common sense that you know you wonder why the Oscars don't just do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why don't they do that? What I have been told is that they see it as empowering the other countries. It's like the Olympics or the World Cup. The people who run the World Cup, FIFA, do not tell Germany what players to select for their team.
--:-- Nate Jones: I understand that logic, even though, you know, I like my way. I think it's good, but I can understand why they think that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I wonder, is anyone out there making the case that we just don't even need this category anymore? Because as you're pointing out here, you've got this sort of international bleed into the best picture category. Do we still need to have a whole category for movies that, you know, aren't English language?
--:-- Nate Jones: I do think that we need this category, if only because, you know, I just said that there are two films in this year's field nominated for best picture. Usually there's only one. Sometimes there's zero.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so I think having this category still lets a film like Seat of the Sacred Fig, which was not nominated for Best Picture, you know, this is a place to celebrate that film.
--:-- Nate Jones: And yes, I think, you know, in a perfect world, we'd have a totally equal playing field and people would, you know, slot in international films in their mental headspace alongside Hollywood films very easily. But, you know, we don't live in a perfect world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so I think it's good to kind of have this little place that lets Academy members sort of gives them a window into what's happening outside the U.S.
--:-- Nate Jones: Nate Jones, Best Supporting Writer at Vulture.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Best Producer goes to Abishai Artsy. Best Deputy, Jolie Myers. Best Senior Researcher, Laura Bullard. And Best Mixing is going to be shared by Andrea Christensdottir and Patrick Boyd.
--:-- Nate Jones: Oh, and the Oscar for Best Ensemble. Why doesn't that Oscar exist?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hadi Mawagdi, Devin Schwartz, Gabrielle Burbay, Victoria Chamberlain, Travis Larchuk, Miles Bryan, Amanda Llewellyn, Amina Alsadi, Miranda Kennedy, and best host goes to La La Land. No, sorry, sorry. It's Noelle King.
--:-- Noelle King: This is Noelle King, the best host. Today Explained is distributed by WNIC. The show is a part of Vox, which FYI is an independent news source. That means we don't worry about serving the interests of the powerful. We just worry about serving you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we rely on you to help fund our work. If you want to support us, you can go to vox.com slash members and sign up today. Thank you a million and thank you to the Academy. Thank you.
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