--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the podcast today comes from another podcast. It's called Vanguard by Shopify Studios. Every week, the host of the show takes you into the life of a small business owner from all sorts of subcultures and communities. New episodes drop every Wednesday, and you can find the show, get this, on your podcast apps, on the internet, pretty much anywhere online.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I first heard the news about Jesse Smollett back in late January, my first reaction was, who? But maybe that was the point. Jesse plays a musician named Jamal Lyon on Empire. The show is about to kick off its fifth season on Fox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You still don't measure up On January 22nd, Jesse received a threatening, racist, homophobic letter in the mail. It had white powder that turned out to be ibuprofen in it. The return address was just MAGA.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Yeah, so January 29th, a bunch of us were pinged way early in the morning. That Jussie Smollett had just filed a police report stating that he was the victim of a hate crime. And what was really interesting at the moment and what made this story really explosive at Jom beyond his celebrity was that the Chicago police announced it in a tweet that they were looking into this hate crime. And they called it a racist and homophobic kind of bias incident.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And that's kind of where we all took off because, you know, as a reporter who used to live in Chicago working on the crime beat, The Chicago police never say things like that. So I think that kind of set the stage of what's played out to be a sort of melodrama for many people.
--:-- Zach Stafford: So what was the story we initially heard from Jesse and from Chicago police? So the story that we were originally given by Jesse and the police was that Jesse Smollett flew into Chicago to finish some recordings or production around his show Empire that does come out later this year.
--:-- Zach Stafford: When he got to his home in downtown Chicago, which is really close to the Chicago River Walk, if people have been to Chicago, so it's a central part of the city, he did not have food in his house. So he says that he went to a Subway restaurant that was open late.
--:-- Zach Stafford: I went to the Subway and got the order. During that time, I texted my manager, thinking that he was still in Australia because he was on an Australian tour with one of his other clients. I said, yo, call me when you can. He called me immediately. And while he was on the phone, I heard, as I was crossing the intersection, I heard, Empire.
--:-- Zach Stafford: According to his account of the story, two men began yelling racist and homophobic epithets at him. I kept walking and then I heard, Empire, n****. So I turned around and I said, the f*** did you just say to me? I mean, I see the attacker masked and he said, this MAGA country n**** punches me right in the face.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And as they punched him, he made sure to, you know, tell people that he fought back. And they kind of tussled in the Chicago streets. And a big note here is that this was occurring at 2 in the morning in Chicago in what was one of the coldest days the city has seen in decades.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they ran off. And I saw where they ran. And the phone was in my pocket, but it had fallen out. And it was sitting there. And my manager was still on the phone. So I picked up the phone and I said, Brandon, and he's like, what's going on? And I said, I was just jumped.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then I looked down and I see that there's a rope around my neck. So he walked home and the police arrived at his home about 45 minutes to an hour later. And then he took himself to the hospital where he was interviewed by detectives and told the same story again.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And by the time he got to the hospital, the story was virtually everywhere. And there's this tidal wave of immediate support, right?
--:-- Zach Stafford: Yes. So at the very beginning of this, it was huge support for Jesse. He was demeaned. He was degraded. He had bleach poured onto him. But one thing I do know about the Smolets is that they're tight-knit, like you said, Lonnie. They're strong and they're warriors.
--:-- Zach Stafford: I'm so happy he's physically... You see politicians like Nancy Pelosi coming out and putting out tweets supporting him fully. Have you heard about that story? The Chicago situation, the actor from Empire who was allegedly attacked with racist and homophobic...
--:-- Zach Stafford: That I can tell you is horrible. I've seen it last night. I think that's horrible. You see Senators Kamala Harris and Cory Booker not only put out statements of support for Jesse Smollett, but also use his story to argue on the Senate floor for the passage of their anti-lynching legislation.
--:-- Zach Stafford: You also see many celebrities, his cast members coming out in full support of him and many, many prominent activists, LGBT organizations like HRC, the Human Rights Campaign. They even put out statements saying you must believe Jesse.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And even the media faced tremendous backlash, myself included, for reporting the story as an alleged hate crime. But I don't like that it's being put out there in the media, that this is a possible hate crime.
--:-- Zach Stafford: I think that even sows a seed that makes people feel like, well, is he making this up? Well, what is this about? I don't like that. Like, don't put that in people's minds. This man was hurt, he was injured, and he needs justice. Point blank here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For every, I would say virtually most people on the internet, especially those that are more liberal-leaning, this was not an alleged crime. This was fact. And people were angry if you questioned it at all.
--:-- Zach Stafford: The whole world seems to be on Jesse's side right at the beginning. Did people have any reason to doubt him?
--:-- Zach Stafford: So one fact that really baffled people even myself included was that there was no video evidence The city has really invested in cameras The buildings themselves even privately owned have tons of cameras It's kind of why you see so much video footage of Chicago violence.
--:-- Zach Stafford: When we were able to know that police had looked at, they said, hundreds of hours of footage, and Jesse was nowhere to be seen, that's when I think people were like, aha, this is not right.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Does Jesse respond to the suspicion about his story? He does. You know, Justy goes on Good Morning America as this is really being fueled. And they go on with Robin Roberts, who's also a black queer person, and he lays out the story again.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And while the facts match exactly what the reporting was before, what he really stresses is this idea that, you know, even though there wasn't video footage, like it happened, I can I could ID the guys if I saw them. I can remember what they look like, even though they had masks on.
--:-- Zach Stafford: It feels like if I had said it was a Muslim or a Mexican or someone black, I feel like the doubters would have supported me a lot much more. A lot more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what quickly happened later that day was that Chicago police did release information saying that they had identified men who they think were in the video footage. And these men, from reports that we were doing around it, were not actually white, as Jesse had said, but they were black men.
--:-- Zach Stafford: How long does it take police to find these two men who allegedly assaulted Jesse Smollett? The police, we know, kind of were aware that these men were persons of interest. And through their own investigations, they learned that the men are actually in the country.
--:-- Zach Stafford: They left for Nigeria the day after the attack. But they do know that they're going to return on February 13th, which is about two weeks after the incident. So for two weeks since this incident, that's when all these reports pop up that he's lying, that we don't know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the police aren't really commenting because they haven't interviewed these guys. And they are correct. These guys were out of the country. They did not have access to them. But once these two witnesses, or now persons of interest, do land at the Chicago International Airport, the police pick them up immediately.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Police say the two men in this surveillance photo have been arrested as suspects in connection with the alleged attack on Jussie Smollett. Investigators searched the home of Olabinjo and Abim Bola Osendario, who authorities have not named, seizing items including a black ski mask, bottles of bleach, and an Empire script.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's when the heat like really turns up on the case. So for 48 hours, we know that Chicago police can hold any suspect and question them. But within 48 hours, they have to be let go or they have to be charged.
--:-- Zach Stafford: That's when really these rumors start circulating of like, well, who are these guys? Were they even it? Were they just kind of walking by? Were they just these lovers? Some people were questioning. It was kind of a lot of speculation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then about over two weeks after this investigation has started the police announced that Jesse's status has changed he's no longer considered a victim formally but he could be a suspect now and that they need to talk to him and they put that out to the media they said we need to speak to Jesse immediately because these two men have given over evidence that have changed the trajectory of the entire investigation which is really strong language.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And these men on the 47th hour of 48 hours of being held are released and not charged, that's when this whole entire story kind of sours.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And of course, all of this leads up to Jesse being charged on Wednesday night. What is he charged with? Jesse is charged on Wednesday night with a class four felony for disorderly conduct related to firing a police report.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Pretty much what this charge says is that Jesse lied in his police report. Jesse's people immediately respond saying, you know, he is innocent until proven guilty. He has due process. And we are going to run, I think they say, an aggressive defense on this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Jesse maintains his innocence. And then we enter the next morning. Good morning, everyone. Chicago police called this really big press conference. And usually the drama is being provoked by, you know, the reporters are activists in the community and the audience yelling. But this press conference was very much about the police chief, Eddie Johnson, really reprimanding Jetsy in the public eye.
--:-- Eddie Johnson: So this morning, I come to you not only as the superintendent of the Chicago Police Department, but also as a black man who spent his entire life living in the city of Chicago. He talked at length about the symbolic nature of the crime.
--:-- Eddie Johnson: The police superintendent was very upset and personally felt attacked by this. This announcement today recognizes that Empire actor Jussie Smollett took advantage of the pain and anger of racism to promote his career. I'm left hanging my head and asking why.
--:-- Eddie Johnson: Why would anyone, especially an African-American man, use the symbolism of a noose to make false accusations? He talked at length about how the detectives had been led astray and how Jesse took advantage of a moment in which we are trying to believe victims more.
--:-- Eddie Johnson: Bogus police reports cause real harm. They do harm to every legitimate victim who's in need of support by police and investigators as well as the citizens of this city. I've personally never seen a police superintendent in Chicago speak like that. It felt very personal.
--:-- Eddie Johnson: How can an individual who's been embraced by the city of Chicago turn around and slap everyone in this city in the face by making these false claims?
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: Good morning, everyone. My name is Edward Wadnicki. I'm the commander of the Area Central Detect Division. I here to answer questions Okay The boss just corrected me Please forgive me I supposed to go through the timeline of our investigation
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: So now that we have a timeline from the Chicago police and they've pressed charges, what's their version of what happened to Jesse Smollett? Yeah, so on the night of January 29th, we know through records obtained by the police that Jesse did land in Chicago and go to his home downtown.
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: On his way to his home, he did make a phone call, which was to one of the two Nigerian brothers who were witnesses. Once he arrives home, he does go to Subway. And on his way back, he runs into these brothers. And this is all coordinated through him.
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: This was the plan, according to the police. When they meet up, they do stand in front of an area where they believe a camera is filming. So the police maintain that they think Jesse wanted footage to come out. But we know that that camera wasn't actually working, which is an incredible coincidence that I'm still wrapping my head around.
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: And the men do punch Jesse a few times with gloves on, and the police say that Jesse did go home after that and inflict other wounds on himself, which led to bruising and other cuts. They do not think the men hurt him that much. So police arrive. They tell him to self-transport to the local hospital.
--:-- Edward Wadnicki: Around the time he gets to the hospital, he does call these men an hour after the event. So I'm believing that's right before he sees doctors. And then the story does go into motion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do we also find out what exactly the evidence was that these two men gave to police, the evidence that turned this investigation around? Yes. These men do give evidence that show that they bought the rope that was used to put around Jesse's neck.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Their phone records show that they were speaking to him. Um, they are able to corroborate some footage they found of them taking, uh, you know, a ride share to an area and then using a cab to flee the area. Um, and the police said that they do have in evidence, a check that Jesse wrote for $3,500, um, that was payment for these men's services.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Um, so they're able to really paint this picture of the men being there fleeing and before this working actively across the city of Chicago of pulling materials that were used in the event.
--:-- Zach Stafford: How does all of this bode for Jesse Zack? It's tough for him. You know, Chicago police are very aware of the hypervalent nature of this case, and that's why they've been so methodical.
--:-- Zach Stafford: The police do feel like they have a slam dunk here. The prosecutors also feel it as well. And what's next is that Jesse will face a trial that will be very public and I think very hard.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And what we're entering in this space is many communities, communities of color, queer communities, communities that support anti-violence work, being really challenged by the nation on if they should be believed moving forward.
--:-- Zach Stafford: A lot of nonprofits I've spoken to, activists, what they're most fearful of these days isn't if Jesse is guilty. They're mostly worried about the fallout for when he is found to be guilty in their eyes.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And what that means for people moving forward who are attacked. Will police believe them? Will police investigate them? Will the media even care? And those are questions that we don't know yet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't know the answers to this yet. The next time that you see someone report something, maybe well after the fact that it happened, and you say to them, well, why are you waiting till now? Just remember that mine was reported right away. And look what has happened.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jesse Smollett was released on $100,000 bail yesterday. He headed straight to the set of Empire, where he apparently apologized to everyone working on the show and continued to profess his innocence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That threatening letter I told you about at the top of the show, the FBI is now investigating whether he sent it to himself. After the break, the Jesse Smollett case as a political Rorschach test.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so there's this Canadian named Anshuman Edamseti. He's the host of a podcast called Vanguard by Shopify Studios. And in this show, he kind of looks into the fascinating human stories of people who are trying to start small businesses that really appeal to certain groups, subcultures, all these different communities, whatever it might be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: New episodes come out every Wednesday. You can find it in all of your favorite places that you find podcasts. One of the episodes you can find right now is about Anne Ishi. She's the co-founder of Massive Goods, which is this organization that showcases a lot of art from queer and feminist artists from Japan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The episode gets into all of Anne's struggles and triumphs as a small business owner. In a single year, she suffered two tragic losses and nearly walked away from her business. But her community totally stepped in and saved her.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: and the episode tracks that journey and what it was like for Anne to carve out this space that represented all these groups and turn a profit from it.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Zach, so when the story first broke, I think a lot of the media around it called it an alleged hate crime, of course, because nothing had been confirmed with the police. But there was a lot of anger as well that people were calling this an alleged hate crime. Why do you think that was?
--:-- Zach Stafford: Yeah, you know, I've been thinking about that a lot, you know, as someone that was on the receiving end of anger from people who were like, it's not alleged. You have to say it is. And how dare the media? I mean, even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez put out a tweet condemning, I think, Entertainment Tonight for calling it alleged.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And at the time, what I said and I still maintain is that, you know, we didn't know and we were reporting what we knew at the time. And you know in journalism we say alleged until someone proven guilty But the reason why people were so obsessed with this is that hate crimes by their nature are more symbolic than anything.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Hate crime laws are passed to show communities that are facing persecution or violence that a government supports them and sees them and thinks that they valuable So when Jesse reported one, and if you were questioning his allegations, what people heard, especially on the left, was that you didn't believe black queer people. You didn't believe their stories.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And that's what they were attacking. They're like, this is a moment in which we can stand behind a survivor of violence and really show that we as a country are willing to change. So the media was attacked for not getting behind that kind of very activist push.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And, you know, personally, as a black gay man, I think it's important that we believe people when they say they're a victim of violence. But with the media, we have to tell the facts that we have and things that we can stand up because we introduce cases like this where now Jesse's being charged for lying.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Do you think Jesse hurt the victims of hate crimes, future and past, by doing this? Yes. I will say that definitively he has hurt them already, even when he's not found guilty. Like, you're seeing the far-right Twitter use this to show that, like, they're actually the victims. That they're the victims of false reports, that all the stuff that MAGA is racist is actually a hate crime itself.
--:-- Zach Stafford: A lot of people are trying to ask if there will be hate crimes filed against Jussie for perpetrating violence against white people. So I say all this is that it is going to hurt the people that are in most need of us hearing their stories.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Already, I as a crime reporter struggle getting people wanting to come forward to talk about it because of the system that's in place, that police don't believe them a lot of times, that there's not enough material evidence to file any charges.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And now with this case, they're going to be thinking, oh, if I go to Chicago police and say that, you know, I had a noose around my neck, are they going to think I'm just staging it like Jesse? I mean, there's people like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson out there who talk a lot about victimhood narratives.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And if, I mean, the evidence that the Chicago police now have provides a lot of fuel to that fire of claiming that a lot of people are just trying to play the victim to advance their own interests, right? It does. It does.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And that's something that I think is pretty factual at the moment, is that this incident and the charges and everything are playing directly into people like Ben Shapiro or Donald Trump Jr.'s ongoing war on victimhood narratives, that these things are produced for social capital or cultural gain or political gain.
--:-- Zach Stafford: There is virtue that has been attributed to victimhood. And when you take away somebody's victimhood, they feel as though you have attacked their identity, which is one of the reasons I think that I get protested on campuses, because I say so often that if you're a woman in America, you're not a victim. If you're a black person in America, you are not inherently a victim. If you're a Jew in America, you're not a victim. If you're LGBT, that doesn't mean you're a victim.
--:-- Zach Stafford: So people will have to just own up to the fact that, like, if we were keeping score, that this would be the far right's, like, a point on the board for them, because it does play into exactly what they think. But it's really important to note that it's not what they think is not actually true for most cases.
--:-- Zach Stafford: Statistically, the overwhelming majority is these people are telling the truth. It's really hard to report. There's no federal way to count every hate crime and cities have an option to even report them to the federal government if they want to. So we have no system to even track it.
--:-- Zach Stafford: That's really good. And what we know from every study is that they're severely underreported. So the right is correct with Jesse. Jesse did potentially create a false narrative for social, cultural capital or gain. But most commonly, the people in the streets, the people all of us know in our lives did not and they will not.
--:-- Zach Stafford: And that's going to be really important for people to understand that difference.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there anything to take away for people who do care about hate crimes and did care about Jesse to the point that they got up in arms that the media was calling it an alleged hate crime? Can people like that take something away from this so that maybe the next time something like this happens, they're not as susceptible to believing a potentially false narrative?
--:-- Zach Stafford: I think for me personally, I think the folks that did fight to make sure that this case was seen as a victim case and as something to be investigated as a hate crime were not wrong. We should handle every report like this.
--:-- Zach Stafford: What we shouldn't do is, when it is in the news, attack reporters for saying it's alleged or it's been reported because they're just following what the legal system is doing. So that's the big difference.
--:-- Zach Stafford: But in terms of the core of what people were doing, they weren't wrong. I sympathize for them as someone that's been reporting on this stuff for a long time.
--:-- Zach Stafford: When this happened, I even thought, oh wow, if true, this will be something that people will try to galvanize around and used to create real change legislatively. And we saw it immediately from the anti-lynching bill. It passed the Senate for the second time and now heads to a House vote where a Democratic-controlled House will pass it.
--:-- Zach Stafford: So for a brief moment in time, they were winning. The fact that they had a glimmer of hope that they could maybe win, and now it's been taken away, is very sad. But their efforts to talk about violence in America, that is a rising issue. Hate groups are growing at a quicker pace than ever before, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, that's real.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they should not let this dissuade them enough. Zach Stafford is the editor-in-chief at The Advocate. You can follow his work on this story on Twitter, at Zach Stafford. It's a Z-A-C-H, not a K. I'm Sean Ramos for him. It's a W, not a V. You can find Today Explained on Twitter at today underscore explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: small businesses run by people who represent all sorts of subcultures and communities and tells their stories.
