--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Happy New Year! What are your resolutions? You open to trying new things?
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Yeah, I am. How about lab-grown meat? They take some chicken cells, real chicken cells from real chickens, then they feed them hungry chicken cells, salts, sugars, amino acids.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: A few cells turn into tons of cells, then they feed them more and more and more. A lot of cells turn into a mushy chicken substance. This is all happening in bigger and bigger tanks as they go.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: It kind of looks like brewing beer. Then they separate this mushy chicken substance from all the nutrients they've been feeding it, hand that mushy chicken product to gourmet chefs and food developers who mold it into something that you'd actually want to eat.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Something with texture that replicates muscles and flesh. Then it's time to grub. If you're like, hell no, but someone else can go right ahead.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Well, I've got great news for you. I'm about to in a minute. on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from BetterHelp.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained? Absolute truth.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Find the one with BetterHelp. The one is not me, guys. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash explain.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: That's BetterHelp.com slash explain. Support for this show comes from Macy's.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Layering is an art form. All it takes is a bit of intention, style, and of course, the perfect cold weather staples.
--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: So find the perfect look for you with the help of Macy's Fall Fashion Guide, your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts.
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--:-- Host: [Sean Rameswaram]: Explore the Macy's Fall Guide for yourself and shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- [Music transitions]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Back at it with Today Explained, Sean Ramos for I'm here with Vox's Kenny Torella, who's got the word on the street on the meat beat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: A big story on the meat beat is that in November, the Food and Drug Administration gave the thumbs up to the lab-grown meat company Upside Foods, saying that their process for creating lab-grown meat looks good to the FDA.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So far, the FDA has only given clearance for chicken made from cultured chicken cells by Upside.
--:-- Kenny Torella: The process is described as similar to brewing beer, but instead of growing yeast or microbes, they grow animal cells.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Tastes like chicken. It's not necessarily a watershed moment because Upside Foods can't start selling its product right away.
--:-- Kenny Torella: They first need USDA approval. And we don't know when or if that will come.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And really, it's still an open question as to whether lab-grown meat can ever be widely available on fast food menus, on grocery store shelves, because it's still really expensive to produce.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Why is this a big deal, though, Kenny? Because you can already find, you know, Beyond Burgers, Impossible Burgers in almost any grocery store in any major American city.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Yeah, I like, you know, Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods, but a lot of people don't.
--:-- Kenny Torella: All right, rough times for Beyond Meat, the company losing money and amassing debt.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Sales of plant-based meats have been declining.
--:-- Kenny Torella: You know, there was a really big boom starting in the mid-2010s and throughout the first year of COVID, where there was a lot of buzz around plant-based meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Sales were going up and up and up. But over the last year, that growth has stalled.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And in some categories, it's even begun to decline.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Dang. People just aren't coming back for more.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Why is that? Well, I think ultimately it comes down to that most people just don't think it tastes good enough.
--:-- Kenny Torella: They want something better, something that tastes even more like meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Now, I think a lot of these products are definitely an improvement on the early 2000s veggie burgers that tasted more like cardboard.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But I think to the average person, a Beyond Burger isn't a perfect replica or nowhere near a perfect replica of a hamburger.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Hmm. And remind us, Kenny, what these companies beyond and impossible, what problem they're trying to solve?
--:-- Kenny Torella: There's not just one problem. There are several problems related to industrialized meat production.
--:-- Kenny Torella: The first one is climate change. Globally, the meat, dairy and eggs we produce and eat account for about 15 percent of greenhouse gas emissions.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So it's up there with other major polluters. And cows, well, they burp a lot.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And those burps are mostly methane, which is a greenhouse gas 80 times more potent than carbon dioxide.
--:-- Kenny Torella: There is also the issue of antibiotic resistance.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So most of the antibiotics used globally aren't being given to people in hospitals, but they're being fed to farmed animals to make them grow faster or as a way to prevent disease.
--:-- Kenny Torella: As a result, bacteria on farms are growing resistant to these drugs.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And in turn, making them less effective for humans.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It's something public health researchers are really worried about.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Each year in the U.S. alone, at least 2 million people become infected with bacteria resistant to antibiotics, and at least 23,000 people die as a direct result of those infections.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And of course, there's also the question of animal suffering.
--:-- Kenny Torella: You know, what does it mean that we raise and kill billions of animals in pretty terrible conditions every year when alternatives exist.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And so this is how we get to beyond and impossible, these plant-based meat alternatives.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But that's not the news here. You're here with news that something else is going on concurrently, which is lab-grown meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: How long have people been trying to develop lab meat?
--:-- Kenny Torella: Well, the idea first came from an unlikely source Winston Churchill.
--:-- Kenny Torella: What Yeah In the 1930s years before he was the prime minister of the United Kingdom he wondered whether we'd ever be able to grow meat from animal cells rather than from live animals.
--:-- Kenny Torella: We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight for a more ethical and climate-friendly meat alternative.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But it wasn't until the early 2000s that, of all government agencies, NASA put money into trying to actually make lab-grown meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And they did it for astronauts in space.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Are they all vegetarians? No.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Their intention was that, you know, you can't bring live animals up into space.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But their thinking was maybe we could make little lab-grown meat factories in our spaceships.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And so they gave some researchers money to grow turkey cells, but also goldfish cells.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Are we eating goldfish in space? We are not, as far as I know.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Who knows what they're doing up there? But I don't know why they tried to grow goldfish of all species.
--:-- Kenny Torella: They were successful, but it was costly, and nothing ever really came from it.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It wasn't until about 10 years later that a Dutch scientist named Mark Post kicked off the whole lab-grown meat craze as we understand it today.
--:-- Kenny Torella: He unveiled a $325,000 hamburger.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Whoa. It was weighed in at just five ounces, so it was about a million dollars a pound.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And it was really a way to show that this is possible.
--:-- Kenny Torella: I was expecting the texture to be more soft.
--:-- Kenny Torella: There's really a bite to it. It's close to meat. It's not that juicy.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And then, beginning in 2016, a number of startups launched, primarily in the San Francisco Bay Area, trying to make affordable lab-grown meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And now there are over 100 around the world.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Wow. There's been a lot of money poured into the field.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And there's also been a lot of hype with startups promising products just around the corner that haven't come to fruition, whether it's because of regulatory approval, which hasn't come yet, or because of these technical and economic challenges that they face.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So it's a long way off, if ever, if this succeeds.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But there is an in-between a sort of bridge option known in the lab-grown meat sector, which is called hybrid meat or blended meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: What's the hybrid? Fake meat and real meat? Not quite.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So actually, it's called hybrid because it's a mix of lab-grown meat and plant-based meat.
--:-- Kenny Torella: So like lab-grown meat, this thing that's this moonshot, plus the kind of beyond burger impossible meat kind of meat?
--:-- Kenny Torella: Right. So the idea is combining the benefits of plant-based meat, that it's relatively cheap to produce, consumers are familiar with it, and then mix in some animal cells, some lab-grown meat, to make it taste more like an animal and to do it in a way that is more affordable than doing, say, a 100%, $325,000 lab-grown hamburger.
--:-- Kenny Torella: How's it taste, Kenny? Have you tried it?
--:-- Kenny Torella: I have, yeah. I tried a burger from a startup appropriately called Sci-Fi Foods, which is based right outside San Francisco.
--:-- Kenny Torella: They got a rebrand, Sci-Fi Foods? No one's gonna buy that.
--:-- Kenny Torella: I first came across the idea of growing meat outside the animal, actually reading a science fiction book.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Really? Almost 15 years ago.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Wow. And I've been dreaming about making it possible ever since then.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sean, go to their website right now. Go to their right now. Okay. Sci-fi foods. Yeah. You'll see that there are cows floating around in bubbles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is this serious? It looks like an eight-year-old dreamed of this website.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, man, we're doomed.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Well, they are one of more than 100 trying to do this.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And I have to say, though, it tasted good.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It tasted like a better Impossible Burger, which is, I think, what they're going for.
--:-- Kenny Torella: They told me that what I tried was around 85% plant-based meat with soy protein as the main ingredient, and then 15% or so from lab-grown meat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You and I have been to dinner together before, Kenny, so I feel like I can trust your taste here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But can we get a frame of reference for at least your meat consumption here? You're saying this tasted pretty good, better than impossible meat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But when was the last time you ate real meat, if ever?
--:-- Kenny Torella: So I'm busted here. So I am not the best taste tester for a lot of these startups because I have been vegan for about 15 years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: 15 years? How old are you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm 35 so you hardly remember what meat tastes like you know I'm not the best taste tester and so I'd love to hear what you think Sean wait you want me to go to the Sci-Fi food company and try their bubbly cow food well I didn't give them a call but there is a company nearby in the San Francisco Bay Area called Eat Just that makes a cell cultured chicken product.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Huh. I got to try it. I thought it was pretty good.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I'm in California right now, Kenny.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Well, you're in luck because the company Eat Just said that they'd be happy to have you taste some of their cell-cultured chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm going because they have a better name than Sci-Fi Foods.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Coming up, Sean and his mom visit a lab-grown meat factory.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're listening to Today Explained. I'm Kenny Torella from Vox.
--:-- [Music transitions]
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why shop at Burlington?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you like to save but also like to stay in style, Burlington is your answer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, yeah. Now, a spot announcement.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tastes like chicken. Thank you, spot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Here we go. Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hello, it's me, Kenny Torella, with the word on the street on the meat beat once more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the word on the street one early morning in mid-December was that Sean and his mom, known affectionately as Mama Chits, set out on a road trip through California's Central Valley.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained Sean Ramos for him Look at all the cows Look at all the cows Look at the cows Sean Ramos for him
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In the car with Mom Ramos for him Say hello Mom Hi
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are passing Thousands and thousands Of cows On the side of the 5 freeway
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can we smell the manure yet?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh don't put the window down No, no, no, we don't want to smell it that bad.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can smell the cows. It's the privilege of driving between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You get to smell our meat addiction.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chits, do you know where we're driving?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes. Where?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Alameda. Alameda, California.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To eat just headquarters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you know what we're going to do there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Meat taste. We're going to meat taste.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you know what kind of meat?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it? It's actually something in between.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's called hybrid meat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you excited?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I am. Looking forward to it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sean and Mama Chitz arrived at Eat Just in the mid-afternoon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After walking their canine, Snowy, they asked her politely to wait in the car and headed into the Eat Just lobby to meet company CEO Joshua Tetrick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The startup vibes were dank, to say the least.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You are like CEO in a B and a hoodie.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, you know where I'm headed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm headed to Appleton, Minnesota.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have one of our manufacturing facilities there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, December, Appleton, Minnesota, Western Minnesota.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not appropriate for CEO clothes.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So tell me, are you a vegetarian? Are you vegan?
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Well, we need a new term for me now because I'm vegan except I eat our chicken.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And our chicken is definitely not vegan.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: again.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Joshua led Sean and Mama Chitz on a tour of the company's production facility.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: It was real live science on display.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So this is our cell culture area.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So when you make real meat without the need to slaughter an animal, you've got to start somewhere and you start with a cell.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Yeah.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So you get that cell from a biopsy of an animal, get it from an egg, you get it from a cell bank.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So those cells come here.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Okay.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And we begin the process of what's called developing the cell line.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And all that means is let's try to figure out a way to move it from a single cell to many, many hundreds of millions of cells that ultimately look and feel and taste like the meat that you're used to.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: So this is step one.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: They're characterizing the cell.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: They're understanding what enables the cell to grow.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: For example, what amino acids does it need?
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Sugars, salts, fats, etc.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And what this looks like is like someone taking 50 COVID tests at once almost with just like putting various liquid into small plastic tubes.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: None of the nostril stuff, but this is the lab grown meat part of the equation.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Is that fair?
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Yeah, definitely.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Yeah, this is where the research starts.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: It is a lab.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: We're trying to figure out a way to take a cell and scale it up.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And this is, you know, millions of dollars of infrastructure and folks that we've recruited from pharmaceutical companies.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: They have PhDs, again, in molecular biology and cell biology.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And they all come here because they want to use their energy to try to figure out a way to solve this meat thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I wonder if you could share with us maybe just general numbers, how much money will it take to get this to the place where, let's say, you know, a significant share of this country is eating cultivated meat?
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: Well, I'll tell you, my life goal is before I die, I want the majority of meat consumed on the planet to be free of slaughtering an animal and all the consequences that come with.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: That's what I want.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: And I'm hoping I die somewhere after 90 because I need a little bit more.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: It's going to take a while.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: It's going to take a while.
--:-- Joshua Tetrick: I need a little bit more time to make it happened.
--:-- [Joshua Tetrick leaves, and the conversation continues with Sean Rameswaram]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After a while, Joshua had to go catch a flight, but his departure brought Sean and Mama Chitz to the moment we've all been waiting for, the taste test.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Perhaps you're expecting chicken breast?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, on that fateful day, Chef Chris had some other ideas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the chefs get to have a little bit of fun on some of these courses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's fall, so we wanted to kind of bring in a lot of the seasonal flavors.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So golden beets, sweet potatoes, pepito seeds, pomegranate, a little bit of chiffonade parsley.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's the salad underneath.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's going to have a little bit of paprika and some cayenne to give a little kick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't want to distract from what's on top though.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes, you haven't even mentioned the chicken yet, which looks to me like almost like pork rindy or something.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is actually chicken skin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's one of our newest developments.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow, Chits is smiling about the chicken skin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you excited?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes, I can taste it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why are you so I'm so excited.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I do like crispy chicken skin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's a human. Who doesn't love crispy chicken skin?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know I do
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After they got done with the chicken skin it was time for the piece de resistance a clay pot rice dish with pan chicken on top
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mmm-mm. Big moment, Chits.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Here we go. I'm going to do like a little mix.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mmm. Tastes real. Delicious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It tastes like chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right. Mmm. Is it good?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. It's like chicken nuggets. But tastier.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Way tastier than chicken nuggets.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I got to apologize right now to Kenny Torello at Vox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because the whole reason I'm here is that we said, Kenny, have you tried this lab cultivated meat?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he said, yeah, it's pretty good.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we said, but when was the last time you ate real meat?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he was like, you know, 20 years ago when I was in high school.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now I'm sitting here and I've bitten into the fatty, meaty chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Kenny was right. It tastes exactly the same.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, it did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I accept your apology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'd love to hear what you thought of it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, what I thought was they've done something rather extraordinary here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They've served me up some chicken that tastes just like chicken, except no animal had to die for this chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the process is gargantuan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is that true for the rest of the lab meat startups out there, Kenny?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What are the big challenges that the industry is facing, you know, as a whole?
--:-- Kenny Torella: There are a lot.
--:-- Kenny Torella: The first one is just figuring out how to make cells grow fast without what is called fetal bovine serum.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Delicious, Sabnig. It's the blood of a cow fetus.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And cell culture, you know, whether it's done for medical research or for this, you know, tiny industry of lab-grown meat, depends on the blood of a cow fetus.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It makes cells grow really, really fast.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And startups are obviously trying to get away from relying on it because it means killing an animal.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And it's very, very expensive.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Another major challenge is preventing bacterial contamination.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Around 20% of all animal production is lost to disease.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Animals get sick, they die.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And the same thing can happen to these cells.
--:-- Kenny Torella: If bacteria makes its way into these facilities that are creating lab-grown meat, it could spoil a batch and, you know, make a company lose out hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars.
--:-- Kenny Torella: And another one is just the massive scale.
--:-- Kenny Torella: There was one estimate that said that producing 10% of the global meat supply chain from lab-grown meat would cost $2 trillion in factory costs.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Two trillion? Two trillion.
--:-- Kenny Torella: There are so many challenges ahead to scaling this up and competing with conventional meat on cost.
--:-- Kenny Torella: But it's also worth pointing out that the factory farm system we have today has been 100 years in the making and has benefited from a lot of governmental support in the way of subsidies and research and development.
--:-- Kenny Torella: One thing I often say is that the price of meat is artificial.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It's animals who pay the cost.
--:-- Kenny Torella: It's people who live near these factory farms who pay the cost.
--:-- Kenny Torella: The workers who, you know, toil in dangerous conditions.
--:-- Kenny Torella: Meat may be cheap on the supermarket shelf or at a fast food menu, but there's someone paying the cost there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so lab-grown meat has a host of intimidating hurdles ahead from tech to financing to logistics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But Kenny, to quote Marvin and Tammy, or maybe Ashford and Simpson, ain't nothing like the real thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the real thing is real easy to do compared to all this work they're doing to make the alternative.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's it going to take to get over that?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's going to take a lot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're going to have to persuade consumers not just to try this novel food product, but to actually come back and purchase it and start purchasing it instead of the factory farmed chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In surveys so far, consumers are mixed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Usually a good amount will say that they are open to trying and eating lab-grown chicken or other meats.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But a survey is really different from consumer behavior.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: People say one thing in a survey, they do another thing when they're inside a grocery store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they see price differences or they fall into what you just alluded to, the naturalistic fallacy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If something is natural, even if it's bad for the planet, it's bad for the animals, that might be seen as preferable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of the startup founders that I've talked to, maybe five years ago, they were hyping this up as something that's around the corner that's going to totally disrupt the meat market.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I'm starting to hear more measured comments from founders saying that if this succeeds, it's going to take not just years, but decades.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, Kenny, I remember the last time we went out to dinner
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We went out for hot pot
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there was a mix of vegetarians and carnivores at the table
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I look forward to the day
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Where we can go to that hot pot spot in Northern Virginia
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And maybe have some lab-grown meat on the table
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that no animals can be harmed in the making of our dinner
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That'd be hot
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I love it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it works
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it works
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was Sean Ramos for him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He went to Eat Just with Mom Ramos for him and Snowy who lamentably didn't get to try any chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The program today was produced by Miles Bryan and edited by Jolie Myers with help from Matthew Collette.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard with help from Siona Peterous and Hady Mawajdeh.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we were mixed and mastered by Efim Shapiro and Paul Robert Mounsey.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Kenny Torella.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.