--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've heard about the phone call, you've skimmed the partial transcript, but maybe this whole time you've just wanted to hear the president say it, and today is your day.
--:-- [Sound of a phone call]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I would say that President Zelinski, if it were me, I would recommend that they start an investigation into the Bidens because nobody has any doubt that they weren't crooked. That was a crooked deal, 100%. Yuh-huh. That's the sound of the president of the United States asking a foreign country to help take down his political rival from the South Lawn of the White House, no less. An impeachment inquiry is evidently not enough to deter President Donald Trump from what he really wants, dirt on Joe and Hunter Biden from Ukraine.
--:-- [Music transitions]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Likewise, China should start an investigation into the Bidens. Because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with Ukraine.
--:-- [Music transitions]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We called Daria Kalinyuk in Kiev to find out what it's like for Ukrainians to find themselves in the center of an American impeachment scandal.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I'm the executive director of the Anti-Corruption Action Center.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what does that mean?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We are doing watchdog work, our government and our authorities. We expose corruption and we advocate for change.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I asked her to tell me, as best she could, how this mess with Hunter Biden in Ukraine got started.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It's very important to talk about corruption. If you don't talk about corruption, why would you give money to a country that you think is corrupt?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Five years ago, we had people protesting against the authoritative regime of Viktor Yanukovych.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She said we had to begin with Ukraine's former president.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: In 2014, Ukrainians, sick of corruption, revolted. Viktor Yanukovych, the president, ran away to Russia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And immediately after that, we started focusing on asset recovery of process of corruption of Yanukovych.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And this is time where I have started observing Burisma.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Burisma is the leading independent exploration and production company operating in the Ukrainian oil and gas market.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: You might recall Burisma as the company that gave Hunter Biden a cushy gig.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Burisma, the company, is owned by former minister of natural resources of Viktor Yanukovych.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And criminal investigation against Burisma was crucially important in order to recover millions of dollars, which Mykola Zlochevsky looted from Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Burisma is basically Ukrainian for shady gasoline.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: In April 2014, 23.5 million dollars were seized by British law enforcement officers at the accounts of this company.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In order to recover these assets to Ukraine, British law enforcement needed evidence that this money are of illicit origin.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And this evidence has to be produced by Ukrainian law enforcement agency where Viktor Shokin, the tough prosecutor whom Giuliani likes and President Trump likes, had to deliver this evidence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shokin is this prosecutor Trump likes to say Biden had fired to benefit his son Hunter, even though there's no evidence of that.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And there was no will and no desire on the leadership of Viktor Shokin to pursue the case and to develop the case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was obvious for everyone who wanted to help Ukraine to recover assets that Viktor Shokin was dumping this investigation.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And therefore we were protesting. We were doing many rallies in front of Shokin's office and in front of building up. President of Ukraine demanding resignation of Viktor Shokin'.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Turns out a lot of Ukrainians wanted Shokin fired.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I was protesting. Many other organizations were protesting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are here now to ask our president what the hell going on.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Kalinyuk leads an anti-corruption watchdog NGO.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We will not allow him to maintain the Soviet system of prosecution, which intimidates people.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And then afterwards, Joe Biden came.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is the genesis of the Trump conspiracy right here.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Vice President Joe Biden went to Kiev to help the new government.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You have to fight the cancer of corruption.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And asked President Poroshenko to fire Shokin because he was considered by everyone as a very corrupt person who dumped many investigations, including the case on Burisma.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I said, I'm telling you, you're not getting a billion dollars.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I said, you're not getting a billion. I'm going to be leaving here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it was, what, six hours.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I looked at it. I said, I'm leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor's not fired, you're not getting the money.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And therefore, we were so happy that Joe Biden came and actually made a very tough condition that either President Poroshenko fired Shokin or there will be no financial aid, one billion financial aid.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Thus far, there's just no evidence that this had anything to do with Biden's son.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This was about getting rid of a divisive Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: So when I read the transcript of the phone call between President Trump and President Zelensky, and in that phone call, I heard that there was a very good guy, tough prosecutor, Shokin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I couldn't believe that because Shokin was actually the example of one of the worst prosecutors we had and who was intimidating good people in his agency, who was dumping investigations, including Burisma investigation.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: So I was embarrassed to have President of the United States sending such a credit to such a corrupt prosecutor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I understand actually now why he was doing that.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It's a case that is crying out to be investigated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If it doesn't get investigated, we just don't have equal justice in this country.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And it was the narrative coming from Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Rudy loves this conspiracy.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Biden's son took millions of dollars out of the Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, Joe Biden is vice president.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And Joe bragged two years later that he got the prosecutor general fired.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He just left out of it that the prosecutor general was investigating his son and his son's crooked boss.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: But the conspiracy theory which was presented by Rudy Giuliani needs Shokin, who wanted to investigate Burisma.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shokin, it appears, was not terribly interested in investigating Burisma.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And here is where the conspiracy theory from Rudy Giuliani falls apart.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this White House conspiracy theory must seem kind of insane to Ukrainians who thought Shokin was totally corrupt, who thought Burisma was totally corrupt.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Most of the Ukrainians don't understand what is happening, and they don't understand how American system works.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I couldn't believe that the president of the United States called the president of Ukraine asking to interfere into work of law enforcement agency in Ukraine.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Because this is something that we are trying to change in Ukraine for the last five years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The idea behind our anti-corruption efforts is that law enforcement and judiciary system in Ukraine has to be free from political interference and free from oligarchic interference.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And the United States was our key partner in this work.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it was very depressing for me to read that phone call transcript.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I think we hear a lot about Trump's tone and his tactics during that call.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How did you feel about President Zelensky's tone and his approach to dealing with President Trump?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: I was disappointed as well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was trying to agree with everything President Trump was telling to him.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And there was only one message from him, which I can understand.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He asked for help in war with Russia.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: He asked for javelins.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As he at that time already understood that there is something wrong with military aid, which was scheduled to be sent to Ukraine, but was stopped at a certain moment.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: President Zelensky was in this awkward position because he needs something from President Trump.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And we kind of saw him in that awkward position again last week at the United Nations General Assembly when they gave this joint press conference.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he was asked if he was pressured by President Trump in front of President Trump.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And he said no, because, of course, he had to say no.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, you heard that we had, I think, good phone call.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It was normal. We spoke about many things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so I think, and you read it, that nobody pushed me. Yes.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: In other words, no pressure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The way how he said that at the UN Assembly was very telling because first he said I'm sorry but I don't want to be involved.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We were in elections. Elections. Elections of USA.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think that President Zelensky was trying to avoid taking and picking sides in American political battle.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Ukrainian journalists and Ukrainian citizens care about war and how to end war and achieve peace.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is the key topic now in Ukraine.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It's like we are living in parallel worlds.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the perception of the scandal in the United States and in Ukraine is absolutely different.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Because we have different problems.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You have war, you have Trump.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And for President Zelensky to end war, he had to deal up with Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I can understand him.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: More on that war in a minute.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Here's a fun fact for your dinner conversation tonight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If all the world's billionaires formed a country, it'd be the eighth largest economy in the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are more billionaires right now than there have ever been.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And on the latest episode of Vox's Netflix series Explained, they're going to explain how globalization and capitalism made that happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For someone with, you know, just $2 billion, a trip on a private jet is like taking a New York City subway ride.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A Lamborghini is like buying a little bicycle.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And buying a private island is like a down payment on a house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Billionaires, they're so relatable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find out other ways billionaires are relatable in the latest episode of Vox's Netflix series, Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can just search for it on Netflix or you can go to netflix.com slash explained.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Daria, tell me about the conflict between Ukraine and Russia right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is not a conflict. There is war.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Russia occupied Ukrainian territories.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Specifically, Russia occupied in 2014 Crimea, the peninsula in the Black Sea.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It's a huge territory in Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And decided that it's now Russia, not Ukraine.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It violated all international standards and international peace order.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Second, Russia occupied also parts of Ukrainian territories on the east of Ukraine.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Where they are providing military assistance, weapons, and sometimes even soldiers to the group of peoples whom they call rebels.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then they started taking over government buildings, setting up their own sort of independent republic.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And these people are shooting every day into the territory of Ukraine, which is controlled by Ukrainian military.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Soldiers are literally dying in this war.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We have one million internally displaced people who lived in these occupied territories but had to run away from their homes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mr. Trump began supplying weapons to Ukraine two years ago in its fight against Russian-backed separatists.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: The war there now is in its sixth year with thousands dead and no signs of an end in sight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is Russia's goal here, to just acquire as much territory as it can?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Russian goal is to control Ukraine and prevent Ukraine from succeeding as the independent state where democracy is flourishing, where there are jobs, where there are investments, where there is rule of law, where there is no corruption.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because if Ukraine will be successful, then there is a huge danger for entire Russian empire to collapse.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And there will be huge danger for Putin and Kremlin to lose its power.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Russia treats Ukraine as the younger brother whom they have to control and that Ukraine doesn't have a right to decide where to go.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: So, how important is the United States' relationship with Ukraine right now?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How important is U.S. military aid, which President Trump withheld in Ukraine's war with Russia?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: This is of existential importance.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because we need military aid financial aid and weapon in order to make sure that our soldiers are able to defend our territory
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And second, we need strong political backup and support from the United States, who guaranteed our sovereignty back in 1994.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Ukraine voluntarily gave up all its nuclear weapon in exchange for guarantees from the United States, United Kingdom and Russia that our sovereignty and territory will be protected if someone attacks us.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Ukraine's decision will permit the United States, Russia and the United Kingdom to extend formal security assurances to Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But out of these three guarantors, Russia attacked us and occupied our territories.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And we rely now on the United Kingdom and the United States to help us defend our territory and fight back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Therefore, it is important that the United States keeps sanctions against the Russian regime and against Russian oligarchs and against the Russian economy.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: It is important that the United States is not letting Russia back to the international organizations like G7.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's the group of states where Russia used to be, but it was kicked off G7 because of war in Ukraine.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And there were the most recent messages from President Trump that Russia has to be returned to G8.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's come up. Should we put Russia back in?
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We spend a lot of time talking about Russia at those meetings, and they're not there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it would be a good thing if Russia were there.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Do Ukrainians feel like that the U.S. support is now flagging under President Trump because he wants to have a friendlier relationship with Putin?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ukrainians are very much disappointed with every leader on the West who thinks that it is possible to talk to Putin and it is possible to be friends with Putin.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Because Putin understands only language of power.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can see that.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Has this whistleblower scandal in the United States affected directly Ukraine's war with Russia?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It has direct impact because in order to win war with Russia, we need bipartisan support of the United States.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And right now there are negotiations actually on the possible peace deal on the occupied territories in Ukraine on the east.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there is a risk that Ukraine could be forced to accept back these occupied territories, providing amnesty to terrorists, which were murdering people and killing our soldiers.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And this could also trigger lifting sanctions against Russia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in this pivotal moment for Ukraine and its war with Russia, a war that's killed something like 13,000 Ukrainians, according to the United Nations, the whole world is focused on a phone call President Trump had with your president.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: Well, it feels very bad.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We feel lonely.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We feel lonely and we kind of understand that everyone has its own interests, but Ukrainians have to mobilize ourselves and defend our country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But unfortunately, we didn't manage yet to build Ukraine as a strong country.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: We want to do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the reason why everyone now talks about this phone call and Ukrainian corruption is because we are fighting with corruption because we are exposing the networks of oligarchs and tycoons with ties to the United States, but also with ties to Russia.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And they are fighting back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But we need support.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And for many years, the United States was our key supporter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I hope that the United States will continue to be the key supporter of Ukraine and Ukrainian reformers.
--:-- Daria Kalinyuk: And I believe into American institutions which can resist interference and pressure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Daria Kalinyuk is the executive director of the Anti-Corruption Action Center in Kiev, Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram and this is Ukraine Explained.
