--:-- [Sound of a news theme music fades out]
--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: Yesterday morning, I talked to Joanna Sugden. She's an editor and a reporter at The Wall Street Journal, and she had been covering the submersible since it went missing.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: The submersible was meant to go on an 8 to 10-hour dive, taking two hours to reach the site because it's 13,000 feet underwater, then spend six to eight hours sort of viewing the wreckage, reascending for another two hours.
--:-- Noel King: But it set off at 8 a.m. and an hour and 45 minutes into the voyage, it lost communication with the mothership on the surface, which it's meant to communicate every 15 minutes.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: People who've been on it say every 15 minutes you get a text message telling you, you know, your location and where you are in a certain grid pattern that they've divided the ocean that they're exploring into.
--:-- Noel King: My understanding is that an hour and 45 minutes into that, those communications stopped being responded to.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: GPS doesn't work underwater, and at those depths, I've heard tracking devices sometimes do fail.
--:-- Noel King: And when it didn't arrive back at 3 p.m. as expected, they alerted the Coast Guard, the Ocean Gate crew, who were waiting on the ship above, and at about 5 p.m., the search was begun.
--:-- Noel King: A massive search operation is underway to find the missing Titan submersible 900 miles east of Cape Cod and possibly 13,000 feet below the surface. It is a race against time.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: You're fighting oxygen levels. They should have a day or two more left of oxygen. Also fighting the cold.
--:-- Noel King: Tell me about the vessel itself. What does it look like? What is it structured like?
--:-- Joanna Sugden: So it's a unique design which Stockton Rush developed. It's kind of like a cylindrical design, and most of these submersibles before this have been spherical.
--:-- Noel King: So this cylinder allows more people aboard and allows a bigger viewing porthole.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: So this is not your grandfather's submersible?
--:-- Noel King: It's essentially like, for want of a better analogy, like sitting in a big toilet roll.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: About the size of a minivan, you can fit five people inside and there are no seats. So you're crouched in, crunched up altogether.
--:-- Noel King: There are videos online of Stockton Rush showing that the whole thing just has one button.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: It should be like an elevator. You know, it shouldn't take a lot of skill. And it's controlled by a video game controller.
--:-- Noel King: So it's very basic in design, which some people have said, you know, that's the beauty of it, that very little can go wrong because it is so simple.
--:-- Noel King: Who are the people who went inside this vessel and who paid $250,000 to go on this expedition?
--:-- Joanna Sugden: Aside from Stockton Rush, who we understand will probably have been piloting the vessel, there is a British Pakistani businessman and his son, who is understood to have just finished his first year at university.
--:-- Noel King: Science and technology can also bring about higher productivity, but it can also bring about betterment for women.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: There was Hamish Harding, who is himself an aviator and explorer. He has got Guinness World Records for the longest and the deepest dives in submersibles.
--:-- Noel King: He went to the Mariana Trench a few years ago. He last year went on the Blue Origin space flight.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: A friend I spoke to of his said you know when there is something new to do that is an adventure you will find Hamish doing it because he has the resources but also the guts to do so.
--:-- Noel King: It's the challenge of going somewhere that practically nobody else has gone to. The extremes down there are phenomenal.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: Then there is Paul-Henri Nagele, who is one of the world's, if not the world's, experts on the Titanic and has dived multiple times to the wreck.
--:-- Noel King: He has gathered materials from it. Everybody can find something.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: And when you start to put your nose in the Titanic, you can get out after you're stuck on it.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, so it's a commercial operation with science, you know, at its heart.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: You've laid out a scenario in which there was obviously an incredible amount of risk, and there were also experienced people involved.
--:-- Noel King: Did anyone anticipate that something like this could happen? Were there warnings?
--:-- Joanna Sugden: Yes, there was a lawsuit brought by someone who was fired after he raised concerns about the research and development that was going on.
--:-- Noel King: Among his claims with this Titan submersible was that it was only, the porthole was only certified for a depth of 4,300 feet, but it's operating at 12,000 plus feet.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: He also says there was no unmanned testing of the submersible and that the hull integrity alarm would alert just milliseconds before an implosion.
--:-- Noel King: So there was a kind of back and forth. Concerns were also raised by engineers from the Marine Technology Society over the experimental approach adopted by Oceangate that could result in negative outcomes from minor to catastrophic.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: Those who were on board sign a waiver before they go, which is very detailed.
--:-- Noel King: And I've read some of it, I've seen some of it that says, you know, you agree to put your life at risk for once, you know, in more legalistic language than that.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: But, you know, the chance of death here is, it's listed throughout. There are many ways in which you could die, and you have to sign away the liability for that before you go aboard.
--:-- Noel King: It is an untested, unregulated industry.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: Those aboard do know that.
--:-- Noel King: I was just watching an interview with Paul-Henri Nagelet this morning. The real problem at this death is the temperature, because the water temperature is 33 degrees or something like that.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: And if you are in the sub and nothing is running anymore, making some heat after a while, you dive because of the cold, which is not a bad way to dive because you fall asleep and you don't suffer.
--:-- Noel King: So he was very aware of the risks, but I guess that's why he did what he did and achieved what he did, because he was prepared to take these risks.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: How was there no larger third party saying, guys, we got to make sure this thing is ship shape?
--:-- Noel King: How did this happen?
--:-- Joanna Sugden: So some submersibles do take third-party certifications, but Oceangate said that they weren't going to do that in a blog post in 2019 because the innovation in design is outside of an already accepted system, that it was too far ahead of the regulation.
--:-- Noel King: And experts in the law of the sea have said that also the international waters, these things aren't launched off coast in the continental shelf or within a country's jurisdiction.
--:-- Joanna Sugden: They're in international waters and so they don't come under those regulations.
--:-- Noel King: But that all seems quite murky as to who kind of has the oversight over these vessels and there may have been a kind of this grey area that they exist in.
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--:-- Noel King: Okay, let's jump right in. Mr. Harris, go ahead and start by giving me your full name and tell me what you do.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: It's G. Michael Harris, and I am a Titanic expedition leader, explorer, and the founder of RMS Titanic Incorporated.
--:-- Noel King: G. Michael Harris has been down to the wreck of the Titanic 14 times.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I reached him at about 5 p.m. yesterday. That was just a few hours after it had become clear that the search for the submersible was in vain because everyone was dead one of his friends was on board Yes ma One of my friends, P.H. Nargile, worked for me for years.
--:-- Noel King: We became friends, and sadly, he perished.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Do you have any memories of him that you want to share? What was he like?
--:-- Noel King: French, if that pretty much explains it.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: It does. You know, we're a bunch of guys that go out to sea together.
--:-- Noel King: And, you know, we would travel together.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Just many a fun night at dinner and lots of wine, especially when we were in Paris and got to hang out there with him.
--:-- Noel King: Ph is a good guy.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: You know, there are different levels of friendship.
--:-- Noel King: When you've been out to sea with someone for extended periods of time, it's a bond, you know, because most people don't understand.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: They go on a seven-day cruise, you know, whatever, and we're out there from six weeks to 12 weeks, you know, over the summer when we're doing salvage ops and diving and, you know, deploying subs.
--:-- Noel King: And it's, you get very close.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I wonder if I can get your reaction to what we now know for certain.
--:-- Noel King: We know that the submersible imploded and that the five people on board, the five men on board, they didn't run out of oxygen, which is something that I think, you know, a lot of people found unbearable to think about.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: When you learned that they had almost certainly been killed quickly, what went through your head?
--:-- Noel King: Well, I was interviewed the other day and a lady asked me, you know, what's worst case scenario?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And I said, there are no good case scenarios.
--:-- Noel King: It's all worst case scenario.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: But I said, the best case scenario is if they would have imploded instantly.
--:-- Noel King: So before you even know what happen, you are vaporized.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: So when they were talking today about recovering bodies and what the Coast Guard's doing about the bodies, they don't exist anymore.
--:-- Noel King: Mr. Harris, I was really struck when I saw that one of the men aboard the submersible, Hamish Harding, called himself an explorer.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And I guess I hadn't really heard that term in a long time, like since the books of childhood.
--:-- Noel King: But you also call yourself an explorer.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And I wonder, what does that mean?
--:-- Noel King: Well, an explorer is someone that goes to depths and goes to places that haven't been done before, going to different locations of where man hasn't come up with any type of foothold.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: So we're a very small elite group of people that do these deep dives searching for something that hasn't been found before, which is the definition of an explorer.
--:-- Noel King: Now, someone like Hamish, God rest his soul, I'm not sure explorer is a proper term for him just for the simple fact that this is not his career.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: His career was something else where he then was able to afford to go on this adventure, if that makes any sense.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm not trying to take anything away from him.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: But we have people out here that are explorers, risk their lives every day, not just for one trip to Titanic.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, my idea was to, you know, recover the artifacts and put them on tour, put them on exhibition, share them with the world in hopes, you know, yeah, not a bad thing making a few dollars.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: But had no idea. Didn't know if anybody would care. Didn't know if anybody would show up.
--:-- Noel King: And we went through a lot of hard times.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: You know, we were called everything from, you know, grave robbers and pirates and all the other wonderful adjectives they called us.
--:-- Noel King: When you see something like this where I sure as hell didn't risk my life in 30 years doing this, to have some experimental vessel go out there with some tourists paying a quarter of a million bucks a piece hopping into this craft, you know it's kind of a black mark on us on the people that have been doing it and you know we have over 500 dives of success we have never once had an accident yeah we've had some hairy recoveries there've you know been a couple things here and there but never lost one person everybody as an expedition leader my job is everyone i take out is everyone i bring back and to do that there's a lot of work that goes into it.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And so when you see something like this, it's very disheartening as a professional when they're being viewed as professionals.
--:-- Noel King: You're saying that it appears to you as if Ocean Gate wasn't behaving as professionally as they should have.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Oh, it's not a peer. I know they weren't acting as they should have.
--:-- Noel King: Look, P.H. Nargile? I've been begging with them for two years. Do not get into that vessel and take it to Titanic. Don't do it.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Hasn't been certified. Hasn't been pressure tested. None of the standard operating procedures.
--:-- Noel King: And it takes time. And it's incredibly expensive to do it.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: So I get it. Not everyone can do it. But that's why everyone doesn't.
--:-- Noel King: You don't think I would want to build a sub that I could fit five people into instead of being in a cramped little six-foot ball?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Of course. But the technology and et cetera that's there, it's just we're not there yet.
--:-- Noel King: We're just not there yet.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And he came up with a great design, and I have nothing but respect for what he did trying to explore new technologies with a deep diving submersible.
--:-- Noel King: But it wasn't time to take it to Titanic, in my opinion.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: What's the difference between the crafts, the submersibles that you've gone to Titanic in, and this one?
--:-- Noel King: We use the Russians. They have the Mir I and the Mir II.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: The French has the Nautil. And the United States has the Alvin.
--:-- Noel King: All of those deep-diving submersibles were created by the Navy of each respecting country.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: These are crafts that went through years of engineering and testing.
--:-- Noel King: So we in this little tiny six ball three grown men shoulder to shoulder for 18 hours or longer when we doing salvage ops and we would love to have a bigger submarine.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: But all of the testing, all of the certifications that have been done, the engineering has shown that that is the safest design for deep-sea dives.
--:-- Noel King: And this vessel that was out there is 22 feet long, And it was never a question of if it was going to have failure. It was when, if they didn't change what they were doing.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: You told your friend not to get on this submersible.
--:-- Noel King: When you told him that, what did he say?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Mike, you know, it's okay. You know, it's going to work out.
--:-- Noel King: This guy knows what he's doing.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I'm going, no. Then have it certified. Have it pressure tested.
--:-- Noel King: No, no, they're talking to people. Everything's cool.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I'm going, you're betting with your life.
--:-- Noel King: I am begging you.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Didn't listen.
--:-- Noel King: And he paid with his life.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: But, you know, PH, 77 years old, he's led a great life.
--:-- Noel King: I don't feel bad for PH.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: He knew exactly what he was getting into.
--:-- Noel King: And there was no doubt in my mind when they first noticed there was a problem, he knew what was happening.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Now, the owner of the company and the three tourists that were on board, I don't think they did, but I don't think they had long enough to contemplate it.
--:-- Noel King: And so what do we take from all of this?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I mean, as an expert, as somebody with expertise and experience, you don't think they should have been on that submersible.
--:-- Noel King: You don't think this should have happened. And yet it did. It was allowed to.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: What are the changes that need to be made here?
--:-- Noel King: I mean, here's the thing you got to think of, you know, a baby seat that you can buy at, you know, Walmart or Target or some store has got stickers on it, has government stickers on it as to what the rating is, the weight of the child, et cetera, et cetera.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: So before you can sell that, you have to get these ratings from the government before you're allowed to put a child in it.
--:-- Noel King: Now, you could make your own baby seat, but they're not legal.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: So my thing is, if you're going to build something like this and you want to get in it and kill yourself, well, I think you have every right to do that.
--:-- Noel King: But I don't think you're allowed to charge or take anyone with you.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Those are the regulations that need to be put into place going, look, if you don't want to go through standard testing and certification, then you're not allowed to take anyone with you and you sure aren't allowed to charge anybody to go with you.
--:-- Noel King: I wonder, I read earlier today that you took your 13-year-old son down at one point to see the Titanic, which is incredible and obviously involved some risk, maybe even a lot of risk.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: After a situation like this, do you ever sort of survey the landscape and think, maybe we should stop doing this. Maybe we don't need to take these risks. Maybe whatever we could discover is not worth it.
--:-- Noel King: No, never. Not even a little bit.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Here's the deal. For me to feel comfortable enough to put my 13-year-old son in that sub.
--:-- Noel King: Now, someone asked me yesterday, if somebody would have offered you a million dollars cash, would you have gotten into the Titan?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: I said, I not only wouldn't have taken the million dollars, I would have throat punched him in the process.
--:-- Noel King: Because that thing is nothing compared to the United States as Alvin, the French Nautil, the Russian Mir 1 and 2s, and the Japanese Navy built one as well called the Shinkai.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Those are the subs that can reach these depths of the ocean.
--:-- Noel King: But guess what? The Mir submersibles, they're not rated to 36,000 feet.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: You couldn't take them and dive the Marianas Trench. It's too deep.
--:-- Noel King: They're not rated for it.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: It's the old line that says a man needs to know his limitations.
--:-- Noel King: And you just can't fix stupid.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: And stupid games will win you stupid prizes.
--:-- Noel King: And it's just, it's terrible because the reason we're all so upset is not only for the loss of life, but because it was so unnecessary.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: It was unnecessary. Everyone in the industry knew that this vessel had no business being out there, had no business being on the Titanic. None.
--:-- Noel King: Knowing all of this, believing as you do that these men should not have been out there, how will you memorialize your friend?
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Oh, we already have.
--:-- Noel King: Because I have a lot of friends.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: One of my best friends, Ralph White, he died several years ago.
--:-- Noel King: Another friend of mine, George Tulloch, who started RMS Titanic with me.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: They've all gone before us and literally just hold up my coffee.
--:-- Noel King: And I said, pH, fair winds, following seas.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: You're with our friends. I'll see you soon.
--:-- Noel King: G. Michael Harris, Titanic expedition leader, explorer.
--:-- G. Michael Harris: Thank you so much for taking the time for us today.
--:-- Noel King: No problem. Thanks for having me.
--:-- [Sound of a news theme music fades in]
--:-- Noel King: Today's show was produced by Amanda Llewellyn and edited by Amina El-Sadi.
--:-- Noel King: It was engineered by Michael Raphael and fact-checked by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
