--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Guess who's back with us this week?
--:-- Noel King: Oh, wait. Let me think about it. We've been here before. We've had this and that and where and who and when and...
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it ZipRecruiter?
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, it's ZipRecruiter. How'd you do that?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know. I almost feel like I've been here before. ZipRecruiter.com slash explained. The smartest way to hire.
--:-- Noel King: The smartest way to hire. The smartest way to hire. The smartest way to hire.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrew Prokop, politics reporter here at Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Hi, thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's a whole lot going on with the president, the Mueller investigation. There's memos, there's pardons, there's letters. Is there any through line here?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think the big picture story is that Trump is escalating his attacks on Mueller and showing off that he can use his presidential powers or claiming that he can use those powers to thwart the investigation should he so desire.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so where does this all start? Is it with the pardons he's been issuing?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah. So Trump has been using his pardon power in a few high-profile political cases. There was Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Sheriff Joe is a patriot. Sheriff Joe loves our country. Sheriff Joe protected our borders. And Sheriff Joe was very unfairly treated by the Obama administration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Am I Jeffrey Dahmer who put bodies in the refrigerator?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I gave money to a college friend of mine who was running for office. Trump pardoned him on Thursday morning and all three of these people are very popular among certain conservative circles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. It sort of seems like he's trying to show off that he has these powers and he's not afraid to use them even if they're politically controversial.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And on the surface, These pardons have nothing to do with the Mueller probe, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, and none of these cases have anything to do with Trump personally.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So it would be a different order of magnitude for Trump to actually try to use his pardon power in the Russia case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But, you know, a lot of people think that he's kind of wink-wink hinting that he may get there eventually.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is there any evidence that he has the Mueller probe in mind while making these sort of gimme handouts to conservatives?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, we know as of last year, Trump's lawyer, John Dowd, secretly contacted Paul Manafort's lawyer and Michael Flynn's lawyer and talked about potential pardons to both of them.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So this is not coming out of nowhere at all. He very much has the idea of pardons on his mind when it comes to the Russia investigation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has the president ever used these sort of pardons for stuff that related to the president?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There's certainly no recent precedent for pardons for an ongoing investigation into the president's own administration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We saw Gerald Ford pardon Richard Nixon and give him an unconditional pardon after he had already left office.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: For all offenses against the United States, which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from July 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We saw pardons in the Iran-Contra investigation, but that was years later under President George H.W. Bush, not under Reagan, where the scandal broke.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Today's volleys were the latest in the six-year-old scandal, brought to a boil again Christmas Eve by Mr. Bush's pardon of former Defense Secretary Casper Weinberger and five others for their roles in the arms for hostages deal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The question of whether the president can do this is a pretty interesting one.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the Constitution does seem to give pretty broad pardon powers to the president.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But one interesting wrinkle here is that there's been some reports that suggest that Robert Mueller thinks that the act of dangling pardons itself might be obstruction of justice on Trump's part.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's a really interesting debate right now that's kind of been brought into the news by these leaked letters that Trump's lawyers wrote to Mueller's team that leaked out this weekend in the New York Times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The first letter was written by Mark Kasowitz who left Trump's legal team last summer.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the second letter was written by John Dowd and Jay Sekulow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Dowd is now gone too. Sekulow is still there.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: What did they say?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the letters make these broad claims of presidential power.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The backdrop is that Mueller was investigating whether President Trump obstructed justice in the case of allegedly asking James Comey to let go of the investigation into Michael Flynn in the case of firing Comey.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what Trump lawyers argue in this letter is essentially that anything the president does that's part of his normal powers cannot be considered obstruction of justice.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Because technically he runs all this stuff.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, and it's interesting because a lot of the legal precedent and statutes about obstruction of justice relate to the question of corrupt intent.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The thing to understand there is that if a public official does something that's intended to cover up a crime, even if it's something that he or she would ordinarily be able to do, if it's done with corrupt intent, it could be obstruction of justice.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is one legal school of thought.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So under that line of thinking, Trump telling Comey to let go of the Flynn investigation, you know, if that's done with corrupt intent, that could be obstruction of justice.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, Trump's lawyers claim in response that the president has broad powers to end any investigation he wants.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So firing Comey if even if it was Trump's lawyers are saying even if Trump fired Comey because he wanted to shut down the Russia investigation that that would have been legal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is the argument they're making in this letter that that can't be obstruction of justice because the president has the power to do this stuff anyway and his corrupt intent doesn't really matter.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It is interesting that these letters are from Trump's personal lawyers, not the White House or the Justice Department.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The actual government lawyers have not tied themselves to these really bold and controversial claims.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But the reason I think it's so scary is that if you take Trump's lawyer's argument for it, then Donald Trump can order the Justice Department to open an investigation into anyone he wants for any reason whatsoever, even if it's a corrupt reason.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He can end any investigation into anyone he wants.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Like, let's say some businessman gave Trump a big donation and said that he wanted him to end an investigation into his business practices.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Trump's lawyers are saying, well, he could do that. It's the president's power. He can use the Justice Department, however he likes, it's really up to him.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And there are no internal checks on his power.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It sounds like absolute power.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It does bring to mind an authoritarian regime.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, the question of whether they're legally right, though, is kind of an interesting one, because there are legal arguments that he really can do this stuff.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Made by previous administrations?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, you know, you had Nixon era arguments that the president is above the law.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That didn't really go so well for Nixon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But like after Nixon stepped down, we've sort of developed various norms relating to the Justice Department.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're supposed to be independent from what the president wants.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They're supposed to handle criminal investigations according to what the law tells them and not according to politics or what the president might want for political reasons.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we've had these norms that have existed for some time.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the question is whether these norms really do have force of law or whether the president can simply disregard them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is something that really hasn't been tested in court when it comes to presidential powers.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It could be paving the way for a big legal court showdown of some kind, because we really don't have a lot of rulings on stuff like this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Remember that one time we went to ZipRecruiter.com slash explained and posted a job for our interns?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I do. I I really do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of things are going on with my memory right now.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And we had like a ton of applications come back to us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All sorts of great stuff. Just more than I could have ever imagined.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Like lots and lots of great candidates.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So many candidates.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And now, here we are, fast forward to June, we have two interns.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Two interns, not one but two.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Not one but two.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's all thanks to this campaign that ZipRecruiter.com slash explained led us to.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is it free?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's like you get the ZipRecruiter.com slash explained free trial, and then I guess eventually, you know, it costs money.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But you can try it for free right now at ZipRecruiter.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's incredible.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And it's the highest rated hiring site in America.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Highest rated?
--:-- Andrew Prokup: Wow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Vox has a new TV show on Netflix. It's called Explain.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: New episodes drop every Wednesday and today's is the mother of all explainers the one you really need cryptocurrency What is it? How does it work?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And all the illegal stuff people do with digital cash.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Also Christian Slater It on Netflix now Search for Vox or go straight to Netflix slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the president seems to be like cranking up the heat on making the case for his seemingly universal pardon power.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Why is this happening right now? What's going on behind the scenes?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's a lot going on behind the scenes right now.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: One big issue is that for five months now, Mueller's team and Trump's have been in negotiations about whether Trump will sit down for an interview with Mueller on these topics, obstruction of justice and also collusion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the risk for Trump is that if he lies or makes false statements to Mueller in this interview, then he'd be vulnerable to perjury.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Trump has publicly hinted that he would be totally happy to do this interview, but his legal team behind the scenes seem much less excited about it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And these talks have been stretching on and on.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And there has been the possibility floated that at some point Mueller will get fed up and try to subpoena Trump and force him to testify on this stuff.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there's a lot going on behind the scenes with the Mueller investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But what do we know? I mean, Paul Manafort's been back in the news lately.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What are the developments in that investigation that we actually have concrete details about?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think there are a few things that we know are happening right now with Mueller and also with the Michael Cohen investigation, which is a big issue here, too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So one thing that just happened is that Paul Manafort, who's already facing 23 charges on bank fraud, money laundering, all sorts of matters.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Which is why he has to wear two GPS tracking bracelets.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now there's more legal trouble for Manafort because most of the charges are for illegal lobbying on behalf of a pro-Putin group in Ukraine.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Mueller accused him in a filing Monday night of trying to tamper with potential witnesses against him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mueller claimed that after Manafort was indicted on various new charges related to his Ukraine lobbying, he tried to contact some people he'd worked with on the issue using encrypted messaging apps and also by calling them to get them to stick to a false story.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the plan, the plan would have worked, except for one tiny flaw. The witness immediately gave the text to the FBI.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So basically Manafort's been on house arrest for a while and he was about to make bail.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Mueller is now saying that he should not be allowed out on bail.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There should be a hearing on this. Maybe he should even be thrown into actual prison as a result of this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So this would be a bad development for Paul Manafort.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, we haven't seen any public signs that Manafort is considering flipping and turning on Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But if he's actually ends up in jail as he's awaiting trial because of this, I mean, that's one potential thing that might make him rethink whether to make a deal with the government.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the president's personal attorney, Michael Cohen?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I'm obviously very loyal and very dedicated to Mr. Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's up with his investigation?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So I just heard that they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys, good man.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Since the FBI raid where various documents and electronics were seized from Michael Cohen's office, there's been this legal wrangling over whether Cohen can claim attorney-client privilege over some of this stuff.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So finally, on Monday night, we got the first ruling from the special master who's been appointed by the court to oversee this process.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she ruled basically that almost none of the stuff the government took from Cohen's office in at least the first batch of documents counts as actually privileged material.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So that could be big because, you know, Trump really flipped out after these raids on Cohen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was really worried.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The president with two terse tweets this morning saying, quote, attorney client privilege is dead.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then tweeting out simply a total witch hunt.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He seems to really not want prosecutors to get a look at what was in Cohen's office.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that's a big issue, too.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Manafort, Cohen, is there anyone else who's feeling the heat right now other than the president?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we haven't gotten any new charges in the Mueller probe for a while, but his grand jury has been meeting and interviewing witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And in recent weeks, a lot of those witnesses have been asked about Roger Stone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He is a very long time, decades long political advisor to Trump, briefly was on the campaign in 2015 before leaving it.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But it seems like Roger Stone might be in legal trouble of some kind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What exactly that would be isn't entirely clear.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Mr Mueller and his team may seek to conjure up some extraneous crime pertaining to my business or maybe not even pertaining to the 2016 election.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I would chalk this up to an effort to silence me.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He hinted that he was in contact with various people involved with the email hackings during the 2016 campaign.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it could be involved with that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But I think the big picture is that these three people, Paul Manafort, Michael Cohen, Roger Stone, they're some of the people who've worked most closely with Trump, who know a lot about Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they're all in varying levels of serious legal danger right now.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So a likely reason why Trump is so aggressively attacking Mueller lately, why he's floating these arguments about his vast executive powers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's feeling the heat, basically.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The walls may be closing in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If the president truly believes that he's innocent of any wrongdoing, he personally is innocent of any wrongdoing during the election collusion with Russia.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Isn't he going about this like the exact wrong way?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He acts a lot like someone who just stole a pair of shoes from Foot Locker.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Trump definitely does not seem to be acting like an innocent person and not just lately either.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Remember that it was only in the first weeks of his administration that he asked for loyalty from James Comey at a private dinner or that he asked Comey to let the investigation into Michael Flynn go.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That seemed to be something he was worried about too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's also an aggressive person.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And if he genuinely is convinced that this is a witch hunt and that fighting back is the only way to counter this stuff, then maybe that's just what he wants to do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think this is more of a political survival strategy on Trump's part than it is a legal strategy.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He seems to be betting that enough Republicans in Congress will, in the end, stand by him and protect him from impeachment so long as he retains the popularity and loyalty of enough conservative voters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think the strategy to attack Mueller and denigrate him and the whole narrative that this thing is a witch hunt has been pretty effective toward that end.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Fox News has been constantly echoing this narrative.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of Republicans in Congress, some of them seem to actually believe it or are at least willing to go along with it.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Others just don't want to take the political heat for speaking out against it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Senator, the president says he can pardon himself.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Would you agree with that?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you agree with that?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: With the moment? That is not a constitutional issue I've studied, so I will withhold judgment at this point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think it makes sense to just attack, attack, attack, use anything you can, try to undermine the Justice Department, try to undermine the rule of law, claim that anything you're accused of doing was just within the president's usual powers anyway, that it's all made up, it's all phony, there was no collusion.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And if you keep saying that, then at least enough of one set of voters will believe it and that that will let him survive.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrew Prokop's full-time job is the Mueller investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Your reports for Vox, as do we.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram from, this is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Irene Noguchi is our executive producer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bridget McCarthy is our editor.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Noam Hassenfeld produces.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So does Luke Vanderplug.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Afim Shapiro is our engineer.
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--:-- Andrew Prokop: You can do today explain to solid and rate and review the show on Stitcher or Apple Podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks in advance.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Wouldn't it be nice to actually like get the interns in here that would be pretty cool they're like so nice have you met them yet?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I feel like I've met them over and over again for the past couple days.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, it's just going to be great to be like hey ZipRecruiter.com slash explained led us to you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now you are here.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's the smartest way to hire.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, that's what they say.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That's what we've said before.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's going on? I don't know.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I don't know what's happening.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think we're in a ZipRecruiter.com slash explained time loop.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Luke, I don't feel so good.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're alright.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I don't know what's happening.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think we're in a ZipRecruiter.com slash explained time loop.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's it for today's show.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll be back tomorrow with more Today Explained.
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--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is a production of Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Stitcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find more episodes at vox.com/todayexplained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: See you next time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's a wrap.
