--:-- [Upbeat music fades out]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Before we get to the show, a quick note about KiwiCo. Their projects are designed to spark creativity, tinkering, and learning in kids of all ages. They make learning about STEAM fun. KiwiCo is offering today to explain listeners the chance to try them out for free. To redeem the offer and learn more about their projects for kids of all ages, visit kiwico.com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Can you hear me now? Wait, should I unmute both of them? No, you're good. I hear you. No collusion, no collusion.
--:-- [Short pause, followed by laughter]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Welcome back. The president and his allies are celebrating Robert Mueller's report on Russia's interference in the 2016 election. Mueller findings released. No collusion. No collusion. No collusion. Well, happy no collusion day, Tucker. Happy no collusion day. That's a good point.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): 675 days. After nearly two years, finally the answer to that number one question. No collusion. Andrew Prokop, you've been covering the Mueller investigation for Vox, and the special counsel finally turned in his homework assignment on Friday.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Mueller completed his work in the form of a report, and he gave it to Attorney General William Barr.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And what did he turn in? How long was this thing? How many citations did it have? Was it footnoted? Do we have any idea?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We have no idea at all. Um, we have seen maybe a few dozen words of the report that were picked out by Barr, but, um, the length of the report remains a mystery.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): We do know that the report is called Report on the Investigation into Russian Interference in the 2016 presidential election. And we know that it's divided into two parts, Russian interference and obstruction of justice.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And so what does Bill Barr do when he gets this thing on Friday? The report was filed Friday afternoon and then the Justice Department announced that Mueller would not be bringing any more indictments and that his work was over.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): The report will now be reviewed by Barr, who has said that he will write his own account communicating Mueller's findings to Congress and the American public.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Bill Barr said that he wanted to disclose what he could of Mueller's findings or a summary of Mueller's main findings as soon as possible.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So on Saturday and the first half of the day, Sunday, Barr and Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein were at the Justice Department basically working on what became a four-page letter that they sent to key committee chairs and ranking members in the House and the Senate.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And what's in this four-page letter? So this is Barr basically summarizing what he says are Mueller's main conclusions.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And he says that, you know, it was an extremely thorough investigation. There were 19 lawyers, 40 FBI agents, 2,800 subpoenas, 500 search warrants, 230 orders for communication records, and interviews of about 500 witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So, like, starts off by saying this was an extremely serious investigation, basically. Okay. Then Barr goes on to say that there have been a number of indictments and convictions that Mueller attained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Paul Manafort and his associate Rick Gates have been told to surrender to authorities this morning. But all of them have been publicly disclosed.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There are no more sealed indictments that have yet to be made public. So that's basically throwing cold water on some conspiracy theories that were popular out there that, you know, Mueller had a bunch of sealed indictments filed against Trump and Trump's family members and all that.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Barr is saying, no, nothing like that is the case.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: OK, and what about the conclusions from these two sort of chapters of the investigation? So first is about Russian interference in the U.S. presidential election, what is popularly referred to as collusion.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And Barr explains that Mueller looked into seriously whether anyone in the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the findings at the end were, to quote Mueller's report itself, the investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Okay. So Mueller doesn't find any hard evidence that that happened.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, and I think there's a little bit of mystery about what exactly is behind this finding.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I think what is very clear is that Mueller did not find hard, chargeable evidence of Trump or anyone associated with Trump conspiring with Russia to interfere with the election.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Does that mean that he found no evidence? Does that mean that he has affirmatively concluded that such a thing did not happen? That's not entirely clear.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And it's a bit difficult to say until we get to see the fuller report.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: OK so the Steele dossier and all of those sort of like stronger conspiracies have sort of been deflated by Mueller conclusions here at least what the summary says from Bill Barr.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Or what about obstruction where you know we all saw the tweets and saw the president fire James Comey
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Mueller essentially decided not to reach a specific conclusion on obstruction of justice.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): According to Barr, after making a, quote, thorough factual investigation, end quote, into these matters, the special counsel decided whether to evaluate the conduct under department standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but ultimately determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The special counsel, therefore, did not draw a conclusion one way or the other as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the special counsel views as difficult issues.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That's a quote of law and fact concerning whether the president's actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So there's a lot that Mueller was looking into about obstruction.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There were the circumstances around Trump's firing of National Security Advisor Michael Flynn.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): There was Trump's conversations with then FBI Director Jim Comey about letting go of the Flynn investigation and then eventually firing Comey.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There was Trump's pressures on Attorney General Jeff Sessions to unrecuse himself or to interfere with the Russia investigation somehow.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): There were all these other public statements and perhaps some private pressures as well regarding other Justice Department and intelligence officials.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There was the question of whether Trump may have been hinting at or offering pardons to people who wouldn't flip on him.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): There was the testimony to congressional committees. A couple of Trump associates testified falsely.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And there was a question of whether the president was involved in that.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And then there was Trump's own involvement in crafting a false public story about his son's meeting with the Russian lawyer at Trump Tower.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So that's the sort of stuff that we would expect Mueller to be laying out the evidence on in this.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But in the end, he decided not to make a call here.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And this is Mueller's exact language quoted by Barr. While this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): There was no obstruction and none whatsoever. And it was a complete and total exoneration.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So the president's assessment from yesterday that he's totally exonerated by the Mueller report and at least Barr's summary of it is totally false.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Well, so what happened is that Mueller didn't make a call on obstruction.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So then Bill Barr stepped in and decided that he was going to make that call.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And he did so over the weekend.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And there was apparently a consultation with the Justice Department through Rod Rosenstein beforehand.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So he says that, you know, leaving aside the question of whether a president can be indicted while he's in office, just going to put that aside, his determination with Rod Rosenstein was that the evidence that Mueller found was not sufficient to establish that the president committed an obstruction of justice offense.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So it is true that the Justice Department concluded that Trump's conduct did not rise to the level of criminal obstruction of justice.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Now, Mueller didn't conclude that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The question of what Mueller found and why he was hesitant to let Trump off the hook on obstruction of justice entirely, while also being hesitant to say he outright obstructed justice, is a big loose end here.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But is it all working out for him? Was this a big win for President Trump, who's been claiming that there was no collusion and no obstruction from the jump?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think it was a big win. I think it's clear that Trump's legal jeopardy over the Mueller probe has lifted.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He no longer has this extremely empowered investigation trying to flip his close associates and get them to talk and say what they know.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And in the end, Mueller didn't file any charges on collusion.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And he punted on the obstruction of justice issue.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Barr and Rosenstein said the evidence on obstruction wasn't strong enough.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So I think that is a pretty good outcome for the president after 22 months of this investigation seeming to really threaten the future of his presidency.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So is this whole thing over?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I do think that Trump's legal jeopardy from the Mueller probe is over, but we still have not seen Mueller's fuller report.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Trump's legal jeopardy from other issues are also not over.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): What comes next for President Trump and for the Mueller investigation? That's coming next on Today Explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): What's your kid doing right now? Staring at a screen? Let's hope not, because that can't be good for them all day, right?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But KiwiCo creates these super cool hands projects for kids that make learning about math and science fun Right now they got one about STEAM The KiwiCo projects are designed to spark creativity and tinkering and learning in kids of all ages.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And I really mean the all ages part. Last year they sent me one of their projects and I showed it to one of the youngest members of our team, Luke Vanderplug, and he really enjoyed it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Yes. Yes, I just think that it was a fun little educational experience that held my interest even as a 27-year-old.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): You can try KiwiCo for free right now at KiwiCo.com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Go there to redeem the offer and learn more about their projects for kids of all ages.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Once more, that's KiwiCo.com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Earlier today, I received a four-page letter from Attorney General Barr outlining his summary of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report while making a few questionable legal arguments of his own.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Andrew, Congressman Jerry Nadler, who's the House Judiciary Chairman, said he's going to call Barr to testify before Congress.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): What does Nadler want to know?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He basically wants as much information as possible and does not think that Barr's letter was satisfactory in explaining what this investigation concluded.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And it was a very vague letter.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It did not really explain Mueller's reasoning at all on either the decision not to file charges on collusion or the decision to punt on obstruction.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Given these questions, it is imperative that the attorney general release the full report and the underlying evidence.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We cannot simply rely on what may be a hasty, partisan interpretation of the facts.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Have any Republicans asked to see the whole report? Or are they pretty happy that their president has been cleared on collusion?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: For the most part, Republicans have been taking a victory lap.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Senator Lindsey Graham writing on Twitter, the cloud hanging over President Trump has been removed by this report.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Republican leader Kevin McCarthy saying in a statement, quote, this case is closed.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): They've been saying Trump was right. No collusion, at least no criminal collusion charged by Mueller.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I mean, they're sort of proven wrong about this being a witch hunt in that Mueller did not in the end go after the president based on weak evidence or bad information.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And I think you have seen some on the right saying it would be nice to see the full report for transparency purposes.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But I don't think that the demands to see it are going to be as loud from the GOP.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Will we, the people, ever get to see this report? Do we know yet?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We probably won't get to see the full unredacted report.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): The question is how much of the report we will get to see.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Because there are a few issues with making it public.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): One that Barr pointed to in his letter is there are laws about secrecy, about information obtained by grand juries.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Mueller used a grand jury to obtain much of his information, especially about the collusion part of the investigation.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Now, that doesn't definitively mean we'll never see the grand jury information.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But there might be some more legal fights over it and so on.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): It's just not a straightforward thing.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There are also other potential questions with making it public.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): One is that Mueller handed off several topics he was investigating to other Justice Department offices.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So any investigation that's still active, that stuff would have to be blacked out from a public report.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Could we just take a moment to recap all of the charges that came out of this investigation really quickly?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, so Mueller's team has either indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people already.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): 34 people. And three companies have been charged.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They are six former Trump advisors, 26 Russian nationals, three Russian companies, a guy from California, and a lawyer who's based in London.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And all of the people who have showed up to actually face charges have pleaded guilty except for Roger Stone.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So you had George Papadopoulos, Trump foreign policy advisor, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with people tied to Russia about dirt they had on Hillary Clinton during the campaign.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): You have Paul Manafort, who was charged with a whole host of financial crimes and lobbying crimes, convicted at trial and then pleaded guilty to avert a second trial.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Rick Gates, another Trump campaign former aide, was Paul Manafort's right-hand man, charged alongside Manafort and then flipped and struck a plea deal.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Michael Flynn, former national security advisor to Trump, pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russian ambassador.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Then you have 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies charged relating to the social media propaganda operation online trolling and Twitter and Instagram posts
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Then you have Alex Vandersvahn who is a London lawyer who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI for making false statements about his work with Rick Gates and Manafort based on Ukraine.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Konstantin Kalimnik, he is Manafort's longtime Russian associate.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He was charged with attempting to obstruct justice with tampering with witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But like the other Russians indicted, he is in Russia and will likely never come to face charges.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): A bunch of those other Russians, 12 GRU officers, were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of Democrats' emails.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Then you have Michael Cohen, Trump's longtime lawyer, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about the Trump Tower Moscow talks.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And Roger Stone, who was charged with lying to Congress about his efforts to get in touch with WikiLeaks during the campaign and trying to tamper with a witness.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I mean, that list is comically long.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): How could anyone look at that list and wonder whether this investigation was a waste of time or resources or be parading around on a victory lap saying like, look, we were right the whole time.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So many people the president came into contact with during his 2016 campaign have been charged and implicated in this investigation.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Yeah. And a lot of these are major figures.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Trump's former campaign chairman, Trump's former national security advisor, Trump's longtime political guru, Trump's lawyer and fixer for many years.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So I guess you can interpret it in a couple of ways.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: One is that there was just a lot of shady stuff going on that Mueller ended up surfacing and a lot of lies.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But in the end, it didn't add up to criminal collusion.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But you also have some people on the right saying that a lot of these crimes were about lying to the FBI on the part of Trump officials.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So all of these crimes, they say, were basically birthed by the investigation itself.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: What about all of the ancillary investigations that are ongoing because of the Mueller investigation?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So this definitely isn't the end of President Trump's legal woes.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You have a series of investigations that Mueller referred to other Justice Department offices to handle.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): One of them related to Michael Cohen and various financial offenses by Michael Cohen.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And it has now become an investigation of hush money payments that Cohen helped arrange to women who had had affairs with Trump.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So that's being handled by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Southern District of New York, and it is still very much active.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That office is also investigating Trump's inaugural committee for various financial potential offenses relating to donations and spending.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Then house democrats and their committees have launched a bunch of investigations into the russia scandal generally into obstruction of justice also into how the white house gave out security clearances and there may be an effort to get trump's tax returns as well.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Andrew, this investigation started like what 22 months ago way back in May of 2017.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): You've been covering it ever since.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: What surprised you most about what we found out this weekend?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I think the biggest surprise is that Mueller did not end up making a call on the obstruction of justice issue.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah. Specifically said this doesn't exonerate Trump, but just said, I am not deciding about this.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): That probably indicates some serious disagreements, perhaps within his office.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Everyone is calling it a punt, and that's what it is, essentially.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He investigated this, probed it so deeply, and then in the end did not make a call one way or the other.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I'm really still waiting to see what Mueller says in his report.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Whatever does end up getting released, whatever information does come out.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He's been investigating this so long and in so much detail, and basically none of that detail is present in the four-page William Barr letter.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): The question about what actually happened in 2016, that's something you need to know.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You need to know a little more detail about why Mueller didn't bring those charges to really feel that this story is resolved.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Andrew Prokop is a senior correspondent at Vox.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I'm Sean Rameswaram from This is Today Explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Irene Noguchi is the executive producer.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Bridget McCarthy, Luke Vanderplug, and Noam Hassenfeld make the show.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Afim Shapiro is our engineer.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And Siona Petros is our intern.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Anna Altman helped make the show this week.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): The mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder provides music every week.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
