--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Friday is here. Time for some quality time with a quality mattress. If you're lacking the latter, here's an idea. Check out Mattress Firm on the internet or out IRL. They're really interested in getting to know podcast listeners. Head to mattressfirm.com slash podcast to learn how you can improve your sleep.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram. This week felt like whiplash. The country continued its fight over gun control after Parkland, Florida, and every time someone or some place took a step towards more gun control, it felt like some other person or some other place took two steps back.
--:-- German Lopez: I'm Hermann Lopez, and I write about guns in America for Vox. He's going to walk us through some of the week's major events and help us make sense of it all.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Last weekend. GOP lawmakers, including the lieutenant governor of Georgia, are threatening to derail a $40 million tax break for Delta unless the airline reinstates its discount program for NRA members.
--:-- German Lopez: So yeah, Delta, United, and several other companies canceled these discounts that they had with NRA members. These companies have generally said that they just want to remain neutral in this debate. So since the NRA is obviously a political organization, they've kind of stepped back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Monday. On Monday, Republican Senator Mike Lee, he blocked an attempt to essentially fast-track these gun control bills. So we've seen some attention going in the past few weeks to these bills. Mike Lee said, hey, not so fast, and took procedural steps to make sure that the debate is slowed down.
--:-- German Lopez: Tuesday. On Tuesday, we saw movement, particularly on state legislatures. Florida in particular seems to be advancing measures that would try to make schools safer. That's the goal. So things like increasing the legal age for purchasing a firearm from 18 to 21 and spending some money on mental health stuff and adding a three-day waiting period for gun purchases and also arming teachers is something they're considering.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's not just Florida. At least a dozen other states across the country are now considering similar measures.
--:-- German Lopez: Wednesday. On Wednesday, we saw Dick's Sporting Goods say we'll stop selling assault weapons and raise the minimum age for buying firearms to 21. Also on Wednesday, we saw Trump go into this what turned out to be a very bizarre meeting with bipartisan lawmakers where he essentially came out for proposals that like even Democrats would be cautious about proposing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So something he said is that we should seize some people's guns without even due process rights. I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man's case that just took place in Florida. He had a lot of farms. They saw everything. To go to court would have taken a long time. So you could do exactly what you're saying, but take the guns first, go through due process second.
--:-- German Lopez: This is something that if President Obama had said would have made a lot of people's heads explode.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Wednesday was also the day that students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High in Parkland, Florida returned to school.
--:-- German Lopez: Thursday. Delta made a statement or an action that caused this dispute to erupt. So on Thursday, the Georgia House and Senate voted to take away tax breaks from Delta, essentially punishing them for now refusing to give NRA members discounts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At the same time, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House spokesperson, started kind of walking back what Trump had said on the Wednesday meeting by saying he wasn't done holding meetings about gun violence.
--:-- German Lopez: The president has met with a number of stakeholders next week. He'll also be meeting with members of the video game industry. By the end of the day, Trump had met with the NRA, particularly their top lobbyist, Chris Cox. It's not clear what happened at the meeting yet, but Chris Cox tweeted that the meeting was great. And Trump followed up that tweet with his own tweet saying that he had a great meeting with the NRA.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And today? Yeah, and today we actually had another shooting. At Central Michigan University. Two people are reported dead. And it seems to have been a domestic type of situation. It's how the authorities are calling it.
--:-- German Lopez: So it's not necessarily what we typically conceive as a mass shooting. But it's worth emphasizing that these are the kinds of shootings that we see very often in the U.S., these shootings that kill just a few people, but they add up to the tremendous amount of gun violence we have.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So President Trump in the span of 24 hours seemed to move in both directions on this gun control debate, and it feels like the whole country kind of is too.
--:-- German Lopez: Yeah, I mean, that's something we see in gun debates in general. It particularly weird with Trump because normally the president has like an idea of where he wants the issue to go and kind of pushes in that direction.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But Trump has in general with this issue kind of fluctuated around in really unpredictable ways.
--:-- German Lopez: So at the beginning, right after the Florida shooting, he didn't mention gun control at all. Then he said that he supports some mild measures. Then he started focusing on arming teachers and kind of playing video games, which is strange.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then he moved on to that Wednesday meeting where he said, I now support or at least I'm entertaining these really strict gun control measures.
--:-- German Lopez: And now he's back after having this meeting with the NRA where it's unclear what his positions are exactly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like even if he announces something at this point, how long will that last? We really don't know.
--:-- German Lopez: So that's unusual in that normally the president is supposed to be a leader in these conversations. And Trump so far just has not been.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in general, I mean, you will see this back and forth with gun control debates where one side will make some advancements and then the other side will push back and eventually we might end up somewhere different.
--:-- German Lopez: I'm not – after seeing just how this has gone back and forth this week, I'm not totally sure if we'll end up anywhere different.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's where we are now. It just feels like we're having so many different conversations in the country right now.
--:-- German Lopez: I think it started as a conversation about mass shootings but now it's become just a bunch of noise.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there one conversation we should be having?
--:-- German Lopez: So yeah, I mean obviously these mass shootings are horrible tragedies so they get a ton of media attention and they deserve that media attention but one thing a lot of people need to understand is that the majority of gun violence and gun deaths in the US is not these mass shootings.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These shootings, depending on the year you look at, make up less than 1% or 2% of overall gun deaths in America.
--:-- German Lopez: And the reality is that most of these deaths are actually suicides.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Depending on the year, again, this can fluctuate, but historically about two-thirds of gun deaths are suicides.
--:-- German Lopez: And a little less than one-third are typically homicides.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In 2016, there were nearly 39,000 gun deaths.
--:-- German Lopez: Why is it that right now you don't hear anyone really making noise about the fact that two-thirds of our gun deaths are about suicide?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So a lot of it is probably stigma. We're really bad at talking about suicides and mental illness in general in this country.
--:-- German Lopez: But the other reason is that we simply don't study gun violence in the way we should.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So since the 90s, the federal government has had this amendment. It's called the Dickey Amendment, which essentially stifles research from federal agencies, particularly federal public health agencies, into gun violence.
--:-- German Lopez: Now, advocates for this amendment argue that it doesn't necessarily prevent all gun research.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the way it works is that it has sent such a chilling effect throughout the federal government that they're now nervous about doing any gun research.
--:-- German Lopez: So if you look at the numbers, the U.S. spends maybe $2 million a year on gun violence research.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In 2011, we funded about $21 million in headache research.
--:-- German Lopez: Obviously, headaches are bad, but when tens of thousands of people are dying from gun deaths in America, and about two-thirds of those are from suicides, it seems like an issue we should be taking more seriously, but we just aren't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In a moment, the elephant in the room that people don't want to talk about when it comes to our fight over gun control.
--:-- German Lopez: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I was a teenager, I worked at a department store in Southern California. I had to start at the bottom of the totem pole, which was selling shoes. Somewhere much higher on that totem pole was selling mattresses.
--:-- German Lopez: That's why it's an honor, all these years later, to get to tell you about Mattress Firm.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Unlike that department store, Mattress Firm is America's neighborhood mattress store. If you're into expertise, the folks at Mattress Firm have it in spades. Mattresses, headboards, adjustable bases, sheets, and bedroom decor.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Go to mattressfirm.com slash podcast to see their latest deals. Mattress Firm offers 120 night sleep trial to ensure perfection, plus 120 night low price guarantee.
--:-- German Lopez: So, you know, you paid the perfect price.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Again go to mattressfirm slash podcast to learn how your sleeping could be improved
--:-- German Lopez: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: About two-thirds of the gun deaths in America are suicides, but suicides seldom come up in our conversation about gun control.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: I'm Dylan Matthews, and I've written about suicides for Vox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you are not a depressed person, you don't view suicide as a risk to yourself, but you do view homicide as a risk.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And in particular, homicides that happen in places that feel like a place you might be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think the broader media does not focus on killings in like South LA or sort of Brownsville, Brooklyn, because it doesn't seem like something their customers could see happening to them.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Whereas your kid could be going to the high school that where a shooting happens next. You could be in the office where there's a shooting. You could be in the mall where there's a shooting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the truth of the matter is that suicide is a danger to vastly more people than mass shootings are a danger to.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: They're just mentally ill people. Do the arguments that people make about handguns now in relation to handgun bans in Chicago not working because they still have such a high homicide rate, do those basically apply to suicides as well?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, oh, if they wanted to kill themselves, they'd find a way.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Suicidal people are not rational.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. That seems like an obvious point, but it's worth dwelling upon that if you want to end your life, it is because you are severely depressed, which is a mental health condition that is treatable.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And small barriers can make a big difference.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was a study, there have been a few studies that look at hospital admissions for suicide attempts.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And they find that if you attempt suicide through cutting your wrist or another part of your body, about 6.7% of people in those cases die.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: About 6.5% of people who try to overdose on pills or poison die.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: But the same study that found those found that 96% of people who try to kill themselves with a gun die.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But you sort of have to think about the situation where if someone's suicidally depressed and they don't have access to a gun, they might attempt suicide, but they're much less likely to die if they do.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And if they do have a gun there, they're much more likely to die.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So then is it fair to say that more guns means more suicides?
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Yeah, I think it's totally fair.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I would argue actually that there's better evidence that gun control is effective against suicides.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: So, for instance, Australia famously did a massive gun buyback in the 90s in response to a mass shooting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it was primarily meant to prevent further mass shootings, which it did.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: But it also cut the firearm suicide rate and at the same time didn't increase other suicides.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Israeli defense forces are an interesting case because it's a really small country and so you can go home on weekends often.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And it used to be that you could bring your gun home with you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then in 2006, Israel stopped letting soldiers bring their guns home with them.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: It also cut the firearm suicide rate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that was like just limiting how often you're in proximity to a gun.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Does it feel like right now in this moment where our conversation about guns seems to be shifting, where these walls that have been erected for years, decades are starting to weirdly fall down?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is this a time where our conversations about how prevalent guns are in terms of suicides and homicides could also be reframed?
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Yeah, I think there's definitely a sense that gun control has momentum that it didn't have before.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what I don't see is a sense that we're willing to change how we think about mental illness in the process of thinking about gun control.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: So one thing you saw is both people critical of gun control and people supportive of it saying we really need to get serious about mental health.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there's just no evidence that severely mentally ill people are a significant cause of violence in the U.S.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: They're much likelier to be victims of violence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so there's this massive scapegoating that happens.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And I think those stigmas around mental illness also infect how we think about suicide.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's the legislation you'd want to see? I mean, what could the federal government do policy-wise?
--:-- Dylan Matthews: So I think there are a few things to make it harder to purchase handguns. You could do a ban but the Supreme Court seems to think that unconstitutional.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Raise the age even above 21.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: But the big thing is just like how many guns are out there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's really hard without just like doing massive buybacks and mandatory buybacks the way that Australia did to reduce the amount of guns in circulation.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Something like 300 million more than there are Americans last time I checked.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, yeah, a few states like California and Connecticut have what are called extreme risk protection order laws.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And these are laws where the police or a friend or a loved one can go to a judge and say, I'm really worried about my friend Rob.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Rob has been talking in suicidal terms. He's really depressed. He has a lot of guns and I'm worried that he's going to harm himself.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And so under an extreme risk protection order law, you can get an extreme risk protection order, which is an order from a judge that will seize his guns temporarily.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gun rights groups hate this stuff. Like it's literally gun seizures.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: They're taking your guns away. And Rob is going to hate this while you do it because you're taking Rob's guns away.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But there was a good study that found that in Connecticut, this saves about one life per 10 or 20 gun seizures.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And it speaks to what we know about firearms as a risk factor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just like you wouldn't have non-childproof pill bottles around. You should not have guns around people who are suicidally depressed.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: It's a danger that is unnecessary and that leads to about half of all suicides in the U.S.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How do we do that? How do you change the conversation about guns in America?
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Is it a bunch of teenagers getting in the street and saying, hey, assault rifle bans and changing the legal age limit isn't enough? Let's also talk about suicides and homicides?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How does it happen? I would love to see more thinking by the gun control movement about the legislation specifically with suicides in mind.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: So you hear a lot about bringing back the assault weapons ban to ban things like AR-15s.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But people aren't killing themselves with AR-15s. They're killing themselves with handguns.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And I think trying to think about ways to treat handguns as a really dangerous thing to have in the home and requiring that they be kept more securely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The more those are priorities of gun control pushes, the more success you're going to have at cutting suicide rates.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: Dylan, I'm wondering what got you thinking about gun control as more of like this public health issue, as something that's far more about suicides than what we usually hear, mass shootings, homicides.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've been in treatment for various forms of depression since I was, I don't know, six or seven.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: I think I first sort of made a plan for suicide when I was like 11 or 12.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you're suicidally depressed, you really, really think it's in your interest for you to die and for it to be easier for you to die.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: I think knowing that I've had those moments and that I'll have those moments again, like there's no cure for depression.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I feel safer and I feel more like my interests are being represented when people take the threat of suicide to me seriously.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: And the best way to get started is to talk about it as a central part of the gun issue.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We might not be at a point where we're ready to change the law to help people with suicidal ideation and severe depression.
--:-- Dylan Matthews: But the only way we get there is by talking about it and taking that issue seriously and sort of being honest that part of what is important about tackling gun violence is protecting suicidal people from guns.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Dylan Matthews is a senior correspondent at Vox. I'm Sean Rameswaram. This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Have a good weekend, everyone. Be good, be safe, and sleep safely on a good mattress. If you're in the market, head to Mattress Firm, where someone will be waiting to ease you through the mattress buying process. Get started at mattressfirm.com slash podcast. That's where you can learn how to improve your sleep.
