--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A few months ago, standing together with her wife, Sherelle, in the Oval Office, I spoke with Brittany Greiner. Big news for Brittany today. She's safe. She's on a plane. She's on her way home. After months of being unjustly detained in Russia, held under intolerable circumstances, Brittany will soon be back in the arms of her loved ones, and she should have been there all along.
--:-- [Sound of papers shuffling]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What President Biden did not mention Thursday morning was who the United States had to give up to get Greiner back. The merchant of death. These are hard deals. Victor Boot is a real horrible criminal. Brittany Greiner, Paul Whelan, they're innocent Americans. So when you do these trades, they're uncomfortable trades. One of the greatest athletes alive for one of the most notorious arms dealers in history.
--:-- [Sound of papers shuffling]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In the wake of this historic prisoner swap, we're revisiting a Today Explained episode from August on the merchant of death, Victor Boot.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So let's just get right out the gate with this question. Victor Boot for Brittany Griner. Fair trade? I don't think it's a fair trade, but I think it's a necessary trade.
--:-- Douglas Farah: I think that Victor has actual blood on his hands for many conflicts and has done horrendous things or empowered people to do horrendous things for the years he was trafficking in weapons to Charles Taylor in Liberia, the RUF in Sierra Leone, Laurent Kabila, and Democratic Republic of Congo, the Northern Alliance. than the Taliban in Afghanistan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there's nothing fair about it in terms of absolute justice. But I do think that he is not in a position to wreak a lot more havoc in his life. And I think Brittany Greiner is in significant danger in Russia because of her sexual orientation, because of who she is, and because of the prize that the Russians have in her, that it's worth the trade at this point to bring her back.
--:-- Douglas Farah: This is Douglas Farah. He's the co-author of Merchant of Death, Money, Guns, Planes, and the Man Who Makes War Possible. It's the definitive book about Victor Boot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It came out a few years after Lord of War, which is the definitive movie about Victor Boot in which a Victor Boot-type arms dealer is played by Nicolas Cage.
--:-- Douglas Farah: We assume by this point you're familiar with Brittany Griner, one of the greatest basketball players alive, but in case you've never seen the movie or haven't yet read my book, I'd like to tell you about Victor Boot.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Viktor Bout came out of the Soviet intelligence structures. He was working in Africa as a young man, late 20s, early 30s, when the wall goes down. Thousands and thousands of West Germans come to make the point that the wall has suddenly become irrelevant. And he has this incredible bolt of lightning moment, road to Damascus moment, where he realizes that there are all of these aircraft sitting around the former Soviet Union that no one's flying because no one has money for fuel.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And there are all of these weapons depots where there are massive amounts of weapons where the guards aren't being paid, where you can buy boatloads of AK-47s or light anti-tank weapons or rocket propelled grenades essentially for a song.
--:-- Douglas Farah: We're sold by the Kilo. The secondhand weapons, but they're still OK. So he began flying the aircraft to the United Arab Emirates. From the United Arab Emirates set up a distribution hub where he could fly to get the weapons, bring them back and then start distributing around to all the wars that were breaking out in Africa at this point is where he initially got started.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Victor began in the late 1990s, 96, 97, 98. Bout interwove his arms trafficking empire with a seemingly innocuous logistics business. His clients included rebel groups and militias from Congo to Angola and Liberia. In Afghanistan, he sold guns to Islamist Taliban insurgents and their foes in the pro-Western Northern Alliance.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It could have started earlier. No one knew who he was for a long time. By the late 1990s, Bout was a legend in the shadowy world of illicit arms dealing. so elusive that the only two pictures that surfaced of him back then were taken without Boot's knowledge by a Belgian photographer.
--:-- Douglas Farah: I was hearing as a reporter the name Victor delivering weapons, the Brits, the UN, other people had picked up, that there was somebody supplying these weapons that I don't think anybody really knew until the British parliamentarian stood up in British parliament and called him the merchant of death and publicly identified him.
--:-- Douglas Farah: That was the first sort of coming out of Victor Boot as a public figure at that point. What makes him the merchant of death? It's such an incredible, powerful, and horrifying title. Was he wildly successful in comparison to other arms dealers around the world?
--:-- Douglas Farah: Oh, without question. He could move this stuff and drop it with pinpoint accuracy. to any desert to any jungle to any other remote place in the world right into the hands of what I refer to as the potpourri of global scum
--:-- Douglas Farah: Many people could sell you lots of AK across Africa I was living there in the times of the war and covering the wars. It wasn't hard to acquire crappy old Soviet weapons. It wasn't hard to acquire a few hand grenades. But what Victor Boot brought to the table was the ability to deliver attack helicopters, deliver anti-tank weapons that could be fired through entire villages and burn a village down with one shot.
--:-- Douglas Farah: The fact that you could bring in high caliber machine guns, rocket propelled grenades, no one else could do that. After the wall came down, $32 billion worth of arms were stolen and resold from Ukraine alone. One of the greatest heists of the 20th century. The primary market was Africa. 11 major conflicts involving 32 countries in less than a decade, a gunrunner's wet dream.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And so as he built his reputation, both sides of the same conflict would hire him on numerous occasions. So in what was then Zaire, you had Mobuto, the dictator who had been there a long time, being chased out of office by Laurent Kabila's forces sweeping across the DRC. And Victor was selling weapons to both sides.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And while Kabila's forces were trying to kill Mobuto literally as he was fleeing the country, he flew out of the country on Victor Boot's aircraft. So he had armed the people who were trying to shoot down his own airplane and the president.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And that's what made him so incredibly successful was that he could do all of that. And one of the questions I asked and my co-author asked a lot of people, why did both sides tolerate this? Why didn't someone kill him, right? If you're explaining to me. And they were like, well, you don't kill the mailman.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Bleak. But he's the one person who could deliver. You just don't kill the mailman. Like, are you stupid? And I was like, well, maybe I am. But that was consistently the answer.
--:-- Douglas Farah: He did what he said he would do at the price he said he would do it at. And that made him unusually successful. Who was his supplier this whole time? Is it just Russia? It was the entire former Soviet bloc where all of these arsenals had been abandoned.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Ukraine wasn't the only former state with an unpaid army and stockpiles of guns. Bulgaria, Hungary, Poland, Belarus, all there for the taking. So if someone showed up and paid the commander $1,000 and said, I'll take this load of weapons out, thank you very much, fine. And most of the Soviet-era major arsenals had airstrips built into their facilities so he could land there, load up, and fly out.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And it was, you know, apparently a relatively easy process. It sounds like he did a lot of dirty deeds, especially on the continents of Africa. Does his involvement in them play a central role in accelerating the conflict or accelerating the end of the conflict? How important a player is he in these conflicts?
--:-- Douglas Farah: His ability to supply weapons to some of the worst warlords on the planet was, I think, transformational for those wars. Elevating bloody conflicts from machetes and single-shot rifles to... AK-47s, not by the thousands, but by the tens of thousands.
--:-- Douglas Farah: When these wars started, most people had hunting rifles and machetes, and they were nasty and they were hellacious. But when you add AK-47s and light anti-tank weapons and RPGs, obviously the human toll escalates dramatically.
--:-- Douglas Farah: He transformed these young adolescent warriors into insidious, mindless, maniacally driven killing machines that operated with assembly line efficiencies. Victor Boot, in my eyes, is one of the most dangerous men on the face of the earth.
--:-- Douglas Farah: On the face of the earth. Without a doubt. Do we have any idea the amount of people he armed? Do we have any idea how many people his arms may have killed? I don't think anyone's ever done that calculation.
--:-- Douglas Farah: But if you look at the wars, you have Liberia, you have Charles Taylor, which are tens of thousands of victims of that war. And neighboring Sierra Leone, where they're fighting over weapons in the group supported by Charles Taylor, another tens of thousands.
--:-- Douglas Farah: He was in the Angola conflict, arming both sides of that conflict. He was in the Democratic Republic of Congo, arming both sides of that conflict. He then was supplying weapons to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and then to the Taliban.
--:-- Douglas Farah: So I mean, I think, you know, easily tens of thousands of people were directly impacted by the weapons that were being supplied by Victor Booth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Douglas and I were mostly talking about Africa and the Middle East, but I asked him about something that's often overlooked when people talk about Victor Booth's resume. He was, at times, an ally to the United States.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And Douglas said this is one of the primary reasons he thought this trade should be on the table, whether just or not. The most recent case where American officials and American private security firms were colluding with Victor Boot was during the Iraq war.
--:-- Douglas Farah: In fact, during the Iraq conflict, when hardly anyone would fly supplies to U.S. troops on the ground, Victor Boot flew hundreds of missions for U.S. and British and other forces into a war zone that was very important to us.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And as my co-author, Steve Braun, documented in the book, American officers who were making those decisions understood who Victor Boot was. In fact, they publicly acknowledged it at one point. But their trade-off in their conversations with us was, do we let our people on the ground die from lack of ammunition and food because this guy is a criminal? Or do we deal with the criminal and get the people on the ground what they need?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does he end up imprisoned in the United States? Initially, there is a arrest warrant put out for him by Interpol. the international police, a red notice for his arrest. He goes back to Moscow.
--:-- Douglas Farah: On what grounds? On what crime? Weapons trafficking and violations of numerous laws in Belgium, primarily where he had had a hub of operations. And so he goes back to Moscow, 2001, 2002.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And then over time, the U.S. intelligence services and the British and others who were monitoring him began to pick up clear indications that the FARC rebels in Colombia, who at this time were a major also drug trafficking organization were trying to make contact with Victor Boots
--:-- Douglas Farah: And so they set up a sting operation where they sent in the people who pretended to be FARC who had done this successfully in past operations, to present themselves to intermediaries, Victor Booth, as FARC, convinced Victor Booth that they were, in fact, FARC, and got Victor Booth against long odds to actually travel to a country, Thailand, that had an extradition treaty with the United States.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Which seems it seemed preposterous when it happened because he was always very cognizant of whether there were extradition treaties or not. For some reason, he decided to go to Thailand.
--:-- Douglas Farah: And then he said in the meetings with the undercover agents that, you know, he wanted to give them weapons. He hated Americans. He knew the weapons would be used to kill Americans. Wow. He said all that.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Eduardo and Comandante talk about how they want sniper sights for the rifles that they have so that they could, quote, start blowing the heads off American pilots. Boot's response immediately is, yes.
--:-- Douglas Farah: They let him run for a while because he was on such a roll. And that's what ultimately he's convicted in the U.S. of trying to sell arms to a designated terrorist organization, the FARC, knowing that the weapons could be used to kill Americans. That's what he's ultimately brought down for.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do his lawyers present in his defense the fact that the United States did business with him? That was raised in the trial, but not as a significant point because the trial focused very narrowly on the events that led to the arrest in Thailand.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Victor Boot wrote to the judge basically saying, look, I've also worked for the U.S. companies. I've flown 140 flights. They've paid me $6 million. And so why would you be convicting me? The way the case was structured, they didn't charge him with a lot of other stuff. He was only defending that particular charge related to that particular incident. And so he was convicted. And he's sentenced to 25 years in a federal prison in Marion, Illinois.
--:-- Douglas Farah: When does he start serving that sentence? 2011. Over the course of these 11 years, has Russia ever made any stink about his imprisonment? Constantly, yes. From the very beginning, they have.
--:-- Douglas Farah: They have had their Congress, their Duma has issued numerous declarations asking for his release. Every time a U.S. person has been arrested, they've always raised the possibility of an exchange for Victor. So, yes, this is certainly not the first time they've raised the issue of trading for Victor. But this is the first time they might actually get him back.
--:-- Douglas Farah: It's the first time we know that the U.S. has actually considered doing anything like that. Yes, I think it's the first time one could say that he may actually go back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're listening to a conversation with author Douglas Farah that we originally ran on Today Explained back in August of this year. We dug it out of the archive the second we heard that Brittany Griner was swapped for Victor Boot today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: More on what this trade means for the awkward business of international prisoner swaps in a minute on the program. But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head. Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining Built.com slash Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained. There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every 12 people on the planet. The only question is, how do we arm the other 11?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained back with author Douglas Barra, who we spoke to back in August when the news of this trade first hit. That's when I asked him who concocted this trade.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the best basketball players who's ever lived for one of the most notorious arms dealers who's ever lived. I don't know. And I think I would like to know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I remember when it was because my co-author and I were talking, he was sending me messages. He was monitoring everything. And I was traveling and saying, they're talking about Victor Boot now. They're talking about Victor for Greiner.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In the coming days, I expect to speak with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov for the first time since the war began. I plan to raise an issue that's a top priority for us. The release of Americans Paul Whelan and Brittany Greiner, who've been wrongfully detained and must be allowed to come home.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I was like, what? He said, it might actually be serious. And I was like, what? But Douglas is pretty sure this originated somewhere near the top.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know who was behind it on the U.S. side. I think the fact that Secretary Blinken sort of owned it a few days ago clearly shows it was made at a very senior level.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It wasn't some cowboy out there thinking creatively and trying to do something. We put a substantial proposal on the table weeks ago to facilitate their release. Our governments have communicated repeatedly and directly on that proposal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I'll use the conversation to follow up personally and, I hope, move us toward a resolution. How are we supposed to wrap our heads around how insanely lopsided this is? Your rough estimation is Victor Boot may be responsible for the deaths of, I don't know, tens of thousands of brown people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Brittany Griner maybe smokes some weed once in a while? I don't think it's a fair trade. I have gone out of my way in talking about this and in our book and the other things to point out how absolutely horrific what Victor Boot did what he enabled people to do over a period of years
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you talked about you know the tens of thousands of deaths, but there are equal number more of rapes. There are that many burned villages. There are that many children who were kidnapped, often forced to kill their own parents, burn their own villages and become child soldiers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I have no illusions about who Victor Boot was. My main point is that he could be up for parole in a couple years anyway. He's no longer, I don't think, going to be able to function in the world he helped create at that time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Brittany, as a gay woman, well-identified, being held in society where at least the upper echelons are extremely anti-gay, anti-LGBTQ community, that's a significant risk. And if you can get her out without causing the rest of the world's significant damage, it should be considered.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't think it's that Victor Boot did anything like Britney did. She clearly has done nothing remotely comparable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there any fear amongst people like yourself who've covered Victor Boot or perhaps from the United States government at this point that Victor Boot could sort of rearm and re-up his supply and reestablish himself as a prolific arms dealer?
--:-- Douglas Farah: I think not because I think he was the product of a specific moment in history when everything aligned for the ability to take out weapons and aircraft in a chaotic world.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Putin in Russia no longer presides over a chaotic world. He has everything extremely regimented. Everything that Victor Boot was doing with the Taliban, with the Northern Alliance, with Charles Taylor was predicated on a personal trust between him and those leaders.
--:-- Douglas Farah: You can't just walk into places and start selling weapons and doing those things. All of those networks have disappeared. Those people are no longer engaged. He has none of those contacts left.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I asked Douglas if a trade like this encourages more detainments of big, famous Americans. Is someone going to kidnap LeBron or Nick Cage the next time they're in unfriendly territory?
--:-- Douglas Farah: I think that's a very real concern, and I do not minimize that. I believe we're sending the message that it is good business to deal in capturing, kidnapping, detaining of American citizens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I just don't think this is the right way to go about it. My basic premise with Russia is that they are so far off the rails in regard to international law and human rights.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're going to grab whoever they're going to grab, whether there's a trade or not. They're operating now in their own logic, which is why they invaded Ukraine and have done all these things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do think the question about other countries, particularly China, because they're a big country and can do it, may give this pause. And I think that that is something that has to be considered.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it has to be considered by people who want to travel to these areas as well. I mean, I don't think anybody in their right mind right now would want to travel to Russia as a basketball player or a tourist because the risk is too high.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I don't think that will change if they give Brittany back. You know, I don't think that that basic equation will change.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Swapping prisoners, of course, isn't a new practice. We even saw one earlier this year between Russia and the United States, and we covered on the show with Trevor Reed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it ever even? Are these trades ever sort of comparable crimes or suspected crimes or accusations or whatever it might be?
--:-- Douglas Farah: No, I mean, they really aren't. If you look, you know, you have the Palestinian-Israeli swaps all the time where you get hundreds of people out of prison in exchange for three students.
--:-- Douglas Farah: Numerically, it may not be equal. But I think, again, in situations like that, you look at the preponderance of what brings the most good to the most people. At the end of the day, you have to calculate, are Americans better off and their security better off by doing the trade than not?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But ultimately, the president of the United States has to make that decision. And I think in this case, it's the right decision. But I don't think you can look at it in terms of absolute fairness, because in this case, it is horrendously unfair.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think there's something that these sort of international prisoner swaps teaches us about how the world works?
--:-- Douglas Farah: Well, I think it shows that every country has specific interests that it wants to protect and defend. And I think one of the things I would like to think about with the United States in this particular case is we are willing to show compassion and a level of mercy that Russia would never be able to share in a similar situation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't think it makes us necessarily morally superior or anything like that. But I think that being able to show compassion, especially when a sentence has been served. Victor Booth's been in for 11 years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was actually held since 2008 in really crappy conditions in Thailand. So he has those three years added on to it. So I think that the sum of what he has paid, if he stays in prison here and gets out in two years, if we can just do it now and get Brittany back and save her life in a way, I think to me that is an act of mercy for Victor and an act of compassion for Brittany.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Douglas Farah is one of the authors of Merchant of Death, Money, Guns, Planes, and The Man Who Makes War Possible. We spoke back in August of this year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: President Biden said this morning that Brittany Griner would be home within 24 hours, but Paul Whelan remains detained in Russia. Sadly, for totally illegitimate reasons, Russia is treating Paul's case differently than Brittany's.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And while we have not yet succeeded in securing Paul's release, we are not giving up. We will never give up. Our show today was produced by Hadi Mawagdi, edited by Matthew Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard and Victoria Dominguez, and mixed by Paul Robert Mounsey.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We used some tape from 60 Minutes. Thanks, 60 Minutes. I'm Sean Rameswaram. This is Today Explained. Thank you.
