--:-- Noelle King: In 2016, a Scottish comedian wrote and performed a play about a crazy time in his late 20s when he says he was the victim of a stalker, a woman he'd met in a bar.
--:-- Host: Mistake number one, wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I mean, I was practically asking for it. Am I right, ladies? Four weeks ago, Netflix dropped a series based on that play, based on his life, called Baby Reindeer. It's since been viewed 56 million times, and people cannot stop talking about it.
--:-- Noelle King: Quite frankly, I don't think I've ever watched anything quite like this. I haven't been able to finish watching it because it kind of like traumatized me a little bit. Like it freaked me out. That should not be allowed to be shown on screen.
--:-- Host: There's no reason for us viewers to have to watch what that man went through.
--:-- Noelle King: Meantime, the internet identified the stalker. And the woman who'd been identified said, yes, I knew Richard, but I didn't do any of these things.
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--:-- Host: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again. With Saks Fifth Avenue, it can be a breeze to shop for your personal style, like maybe a relaxed Prada blazer or Gucci loafers that are great for both work and the weekend.
--:-- Noelle King: This is very Sean. This is very Sean-coded. Gucci loafers.
--:-- Host: Saks says Saks makes shopping feel totally customized to you, whether that's from an in-store stylist or a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you just what you want to see. They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock.
--:-- Noelle King: You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue.
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--:-- Host: Having a night out with your friends is awesome. Dealing with hangovers sucks. Meet Senorita, the THC-infused margarita that lets you skip the booze but keep the vibe. Made with real fruit, organic agave, and Himalayan pink salt, every sip is like a mini getaway. No fillers, no hangovers, just full flavor and a better buzz.
--:-- Noelle King: Find your flavor at senoritadrinks.com. Use code VOX20 for 20% off. Must be 21 and over. This product may cause intoxication. This product has not been evaluated or approved by the FDA. This product may contain up to 0.3% THC.
--:-- Host: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noelle King: Baby Reindeer opens with a man named Donnie in a police station reporting a crime. And a title card tells us this is a true story.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: Meacham Whitson Merriweather, who's a culture writer for The Ringer and Vulture, among others, says the show's creator Richard Gad claims that Donnie's story is his story, the story of his life, which for a time was not going very well.
--:-- Noelle King: Basically, our character Donnie, played by Richard Gad, you know who this happened to, is a comedian and he has a very strange, like unique sense of comedy.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: Now, I know what you're thinking. Venus Williams has let herself go. Oh, sorry, God, no, I said the wrong name. That really doesn't catch on with a lot of people, but he's like desperate for showbiz.
--:-- Noelle King: I moved to London to fulfill my lifelong dream of becoming a comedian. I had arrived with such grand plans to be someone as though my brand of wacky bullshit comedy was exactly what this world-leading city was missing.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: You're shite. And so you really find him at the beginning of this show just kind of doing these really strange stand-up jokes, using these really strange props. It's a mink hat. But instead of actual mink, it's a mink stapled to a hat.
--:-- Noelle King: And you're just like, how can this guy keep going on? It's like really sad. It's really desperate.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: But he, again, is a comedian who compartmentalizes everything, his trauma, his friendships, his job, his sexual preferences, a lot of things, they really just become a catalyst for this breakdown. And it really leads him to unpacking all of his trauma in front of a lot of people.
--:-- Noelle King: What is the plot of the show? Where does this show start? So it takes place in a bar, the bar that Donnie, our main character, works in. And this woman comes in. This woman's name is Martha.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: Can I get you something? No, thanks. She can't afford anything. Not even a cup of tea? No. But he offers her a cup of tea. How about I give you a cup of tea on the house?
--:-- Noelle King: But as their exchange is happening, she kind of presents herself as this high-powered lawyer. Trained in criminal law, moved to England, retrained, opened up my own practice, won several awards, now a leading advisor to the government.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: She really just presents herself like she is this woman who has it all, but she really can't afford a drink in a bar. And so it's that thing that really ties them together after he offers her that cup of tea, and then she begins to stalk him.
--:-- Noelle King: Every day now Martha would come in. Each time with new makeup, new hairstyles. Like a kid playing dress up. She always opened the conversation by saying I've got to go. But then would stick around for the entire shift.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: And then it becomes kind of a running joke. With he and his barmaids. Oi Donny, How are you going to introduce us to your girlfriend? So is this the one you've been telling us about? The supermodel? Well, you said that? Really? Yeah, so come on Donny, out with it. When are you two going to shag? Ah, don't believe in sex before marriage.
--:-- Noelle King: And so somehow she goes onto his website for him as a comedian and then gets his email. Then came her emails, around 80 a day continuing long into the night. Her address, a random series of numbers and letters like spam, but the writing, exactly like she spoke, unhesitating, unfiltered, unapologetically raw.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: It's all this like really kind of, not grotesque, but it's really all of these things that are a culmination of this woman is not mentally well. It's like watching a horror movie and watching someone go into a room where you know they're going to be killed. You know this is bad and we want to yell at the television and tell him this is bad. But we don't have to because he already knows.
--:-- Noelle King: I couldn't believe I had done it. Was it a moment of madness or an attempt at self-destruction? I went to unfriend her many times but I always stop myself. She is ill. Misunderstood. There are two sides to every story.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: And this is where I think the show got really interesting. At least this is where it hooked me because this woman is clearly lying about some things, right? God doesn't like a bragger but when you're the go-to for the biggest political minds in the game you've earned a bragger too.
--:-- Noelle King: No, no, I'm not going to say who so don't even go there. Fine. David Cameron, Nick Clegg, Alex Hammond. But you didn't hear that from me.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: She's flooding him with messages, with attention, with affection. Really manly hands, haven't you? Oh, yeah? Big, deep voice, chiseled jawline. Should be illegal to have your bone structure too, you know?
--:-- Noelle King: And it's clear that something is wrong, but Donnie keeps going. Everything about her intrigued me. Her endless confidence, her weird turn of phrase, the surprising poetry that slipped through the cracks of her madness.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: We all been stalked. I sorry. It 2024. We all know how to shut it down. He doesn't do anything to shut it down.
--:-- Noelle King: And then the show begins to delve into why. Why did he let this happen? Where does it go from there? So it kind of just manifests itself because I think, I mean, as a comedian, you really want attention. And no offense to anyone out there who's a comedian, but you really want that attention.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: And I think that she makes him feel something. And it's that like desire that we all crave that really moves forward his desire to keep interacting with her. I think the thing that separates Donnie from like your average person who's being stalked is you know we don't want this to happen and we try to nip it in the bud with Donnie it's this very strange sensation of him enjoying it but also just being desperate for the attention that she's giving him.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's not just Martha. These things have happened with someone else that we meet in later episodes, especially in episode four.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: So in episode four, we meet another character in Donnie's life who we really find out has caused him trauma. Donnie is again doing standup. It's not going well. It always has been. And he goes to a bar and he meets these guys who worked on one of the shows that he absolutely loved.
--:-- Noelle King: These people are so close and tangible when it comes to show business that he's like, oh my God, like, am I really in this circle? Look, I'm doing this show up at the Hoppy Bar. Come down and see it if you can. We'll try it.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: But later on, you know, in that same exchange, he meets Darian, the like head writer on the show. Wankers, aren't they? Yeah. And this guy is really, you know, sweet to him. He's nice to him. And he offers to help him with his writing, with his show.
--:-- Noelle King: And they start working together and eventually Darian invites Donnie over to his home for a brainstorming session. That brainstorming session is like followed by Darian offering Donnie drugs and really not even offering, it's more of a coercion into doing these drugs.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: What was their secret, by the way? What do you mean? Like what did they all do to get where they are today? Listen to me. I'm serious. They threw themselves into everything I asked of them. What's all this? This is a bomb of MDMA. And this is GHB. That relaxes you. Trust me, you haven't experienced anything like it.
--:-- Noelle King: And so what happens is Darian begins to fall into him. And it really ends up as Darian sexually assaulting Donnie. And, you know, this exchange that we just witnessed is really, really harrowing. And it's like heartbreaking because we see the realization that Donnie realizes this person I trusted, this person that, you know, I care for and who I thought cared for me is sexually assaulting me.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: And so essentially he leaves, but he goes back and he goes back multiple times. And the same thing really happens. He's coerced to do drugs. He's like out of it. And eventually Darian really like fully rapes him. He sexually assaults him.
--:-- Noelle King: I would love to say I left, but I stormed out and never went back, but I stayed for days afterwards. In fact, come Monday, I got an eye infection and lay on his floor as he bathed it in salt water. On Tuesday, I fed his cat while he took phone calls. On Wednesday, I finally went home.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: But again, Donnie keeps going back, and this is really the root of the trauma. It's that desperation to be loved, to be believed in, that someone believes in what you can do, even though you know that Showbiz's career is not going well. He continues to go back for it.
--:-- Noelle King: It's really interesting what happens in this show. And I think, again, the reason so many people watched it, because number one, Richard Gad says, this really happened, right? This is a true story.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: It's a true and terrible story. But number two, we're familiar with these dynamics where a powerful man says, I'm going to make you famous, just come over to my apartment, hey, here's a drink. But generally, women are the victims. That's what we're used to, right?
--:-- Noelle King: Exactly, yeah. Here we have a man who's a victim, who then leaves that behind, but doesn't entirely leave it behind in the way that trauma victims often don't. And then he finds himself being victimized by a woman, by Martha.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: What do you think this show is trying to tell us about who the victim is? One of the things I really like about this show is that it's not black and white. It's not a bad person is doing a bad thing. It's good people do bad things. Sometimes bad people do bad things, but they also do good things.
--:-- Noelle King: I think this really puts into perspective that there is no perfect victim. I think we can all be victims at different times and we can all be perpetrators.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: The way that Martha is stalking Donnie really makes him a victim in that circumstance, but also the way he kind of keeps going back and egging her on and, you know, making her the butt of the jokes when they're in the pub and kind of just not ending it once and for all.
--:-- Noelle King: I think it's really hard to say victim, even though this really awful thing happened to him. Is he a victim when it comes to Darian? Yes. And he's also just a part of these events. These aren't just things that are happening to him. And I think it's really hard to say who's a victim and who's not.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: Meacham Whitson Merriweather, culture writer.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up, Martha Speaks.
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--:-- Host: Support for today's show comes from Adio. What is Adio?
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies.
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--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: According to Adio, Adio takes less than a minute to set up. And within seconds, you will have your email and calendars synced.
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--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: And they say you can build AI-powered automations and use its research agent to tackle some of your most complex processes so that you can focus on what matters building your company.
--:-- Noelle King: You can join industry leaders such as Flatfile Replicate Modal and so much more. You can go to atio slash todayexplained to get 15 off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
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--:-- Host: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique, fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say, so we're free to report the whole picture.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate, and more.
--:-- Noelle King: Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.
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--:-- Host: If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Meecham Whitson Merriweather: I sometimes wonder how many of you are running businesses out there. I would love to know. Please email me, noelle at king dot com.
--:-- Noelle King: With Upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in IT, web development, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more. Experts who they say are ready to help you take your business to the next level.
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--:-- Noelle King: Plus, Upwork makes posting your job easy with no cost to join. You can register, browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation.
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--:-- [Support for Today Explained comes from Mercury.]
--:-- Host: It's Today Explained. Meredith Haggerty edits the culture at Vox.com.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: So what's happened in the real world since Baby Reindeer appeared on Netflix?
--:-- Noelle King: So this show is adapted from two pieces of theater that were adapted from the creator Richard Gad's real life. And because of that, there are real people who are implicated in some very bad behavior.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: So for some folks, like the most active audiences, the main appeal of Baby Reindeer seems to be this real life mystery. Who are the real people that Gad based his show on?
--:-- Noelle King: So watch how crazy this gets. So not only did they find out who Martha is, her name is Fiona Harvey, but they found her old Twitter too.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: So Internet Web Sleuths did what Internet Web Sleuths do, which is they dug in as much as they could with the information they had from the show. They cross-referenced news reports with incidents that were mentioned. They went digging into social media to see who tweeted at Richard Gad a whole lot.
--:-- Noelle King: And they also did the third thing they might do, which is kind of just guessing. The clues about the male director in the show were a little bit more oblique. It's definitely less clear who that was based on, but fans found a prominent British theater director and began harassing him.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: After that, he contacted the police and Richard Gad himself went to social media to say, this is not the man that my show is based on. Please leave this man alone.
--:-- Noelle King: Baby Reindeer creator Richard Gad has asked fans to stop speculating on who the real life people are from the show. Richard then also shared on his Instagram story, saying, hi everyone, people I love have worked with and admire, including Sean Foley, fairly getting caught up in speculation.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: The details about Martha were perhaps a little bit less obscure. And so people online were able to find her pretty easily because of a criminal history that was mentioned in the show, because of her history of using social media to reach out to Richard Gad.
--:-- Noelle King: And first that started with the web sleuths harassing her to some degree, the Daily Mail finding her, the Sun, other British tabloids having conversations with her.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And then the woman who Martha is supposedly based on, a woman named Fiona Harvey, revealed herself on Piers Morgan to be supposedly the real Martha and was interviewed by Piers Morgan.
--:-- Noelle King: It's taken over enough of my life. I find it quite obscene. I find it horrifying, misogynistic. Some of the death threats have been really terrible online. People phoning me up. You know, it's been absolutely horrendous.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: How did that interview go? What did she have to say?
--:-- Noelle King: So that interview aired yesterday, and it was an hour of a woman who, you know, does not necessarily seem to be completely in control of a situation, trying to deny having stalked Richard Gad, having been obsessed with him, having sent him all these emails or letters, having sexually assaulted him by a canal.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: This Martha character seems to have smashed up a bar, sexually assaulted him in a canal, been to prison. There are a number of other allegations there. And none of that is true. That's not true.
--:-- Noelle King: There are a lot of specific things in the show that she was really adamant that she wanted to deny, but she does maintain that she is the basis for Martha and he has impugned her in this way.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: They have billed it as a true story, so has he, and it's not. It's blatantly not. Even if the email thing was true, the rest is not.
--:-- Noelle King: Why would you qualify that, Fiona? Sorry, why would I watch? Why would you suddenly qualify even if it's true about the emails?
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: I'm just playing devil's advocate here. So in my estimation, it was a pretty messy waste of time for an hour. Morgan didn't come with any hard evidence that would nail Fiona Harvey on her stalking past, but he also didn't treat her with any particular empathy.
--:-- Noelle King: So instead, we're just left with an hour of denial and evasion.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: OK, I really liked it. Fascinating. But I hear your point. I mean, okay, so you point to the lack of hard evidence. I noticed that too.
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah. This woman, Fiona Harvey, in real life, she has faced accusations of stalking. Yes. Now, this is a different person, not Richard Gad.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: How did Piers Morgan address that with her?
--:-- Noelle King: So, in the past, Fiona Harvey has been accused of stalking a woman named Laura Ray and her husband, a solicitor who had previously hired Fiona Harvey.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And Fiona Harvey's reaction to that was that, yes, she had been hired by Ms. Ray, And yes, they had not gotten along. Yes, she'd been fired, but she had never actually served an interim interdict because, as she explained it, Laura Ray messed up her attempt to serve her with this, what is effectively a restraining order, which is perhaps not the strongest rebuttal to the idea that you've been stalking people, that they didn't do a good job of serving you a restraining order.
--:-- Noelle King: So you know it ended up in just a little bit of an impasse but it seems pretty clear that Fiona Harvey has had troubled relationships in the past with other people who did not appreciate her contact.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Her response to that you know there a technicality here guys. That actually seemed to me to be the response of a lawyer.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's worth noting, Fiona Harvey says she has a law degree. I think the understanding is that she does have a degree from Aberdeen University in law.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Whether she continued beyond that is unclear, but that is what led her to get a job with Laura Ray in the first place.
--:-- Noelle King: And she says she's not going to let this go, right? She seems very aware that he has made some sweet Netflix money.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Yes. And they talked about specific numbers. Do we know how much?
--:-- Noelle King: Piers Morgan asked her. She has her theories. She's going to sue everybody, is what she's claiming.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: She's going to sue everybody. And I think actually she asked Piers Morgan if he knew how much Richard Gad had made, which I thought was a really compelling moment in that interview.
--:-- Noelle King: Can I ask a question? Do you happen to know how much she's made out of this Netflix thing?
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: I would imagine several million pounds. Yes, I would say three to four million.
--:-- Noelle King: A lawyer I know well thought he was a wee nobody. And he suggested 750 to 100,000. I said, no, I think you're looking more about three or four million.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And I think the more he publicizes, it goes up. You know, according to how much it's streamed. I don't know, I don't know the contract they signed. I think he's done bloody well.
--:-- Noelle King: So, yes, Fiona Harvey, I think on the one hand seems extremely hurt by what has happened. I think that seems true and real. And also, she sees what a cash cow this is. And she mentioned it a number of times while talking about both Richard Gadd and the actress who plays the character of Martha, whose name is Jessica Gunning.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: I love when she was like, her accent wasn't quite right. That's a different Scottish accent than the accent. Like, I don't know. I don't know.
--:-- Noelle King: I found her fascinating. There was a part in there where Jessica Gunning was speaking for herself. Jessica Gunning is actually a British actress.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And Fiona Harvey pointed out, she doesn't sound Scottish at all. And Piers Morgan had to be like, yeah. She doesn't even sound Scottish in that interview. Her accent seems to be varying. Well, she's not. She's English. She's an actress.
--:-- Noelle King: The problem at the heart of all of this, as Fiona Harvey argued, is that Netflix made the contention that this is a true story.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: What is the problem with that? And how has Richard Gad responded to all of this?
--:-- Noelle King: The show does start with explicitly the words, this is a true story, which is unusual. Often stories that are based on real life will start with this is based on a true story. or this is a true story, kind of, or, you know, sort of hedging language like that.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: This is also, I would say, primarily a piece of autofiction, which is a genre that sort of blurs the line between memoir and fiction. It is not, say, a piece of true crime, which is the kind of genre where I think they're a little more careful about what is true and what is untrue.
--:-- Noelle King: So what Richard Gad has had to say about all this is he had made the Martha character unrecognizable. He said, we've gone to such great lengths to disguise her to this point that I don't think she would recognize herself.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And I will say, if Fiona Harvey is Martha, no, he did not. No, he sure did not. It took like days. It was like days before people found her. It was almost no time at all. It was really quite fast.
--:-- Noelle King: Also, a thing to bear in mind here is if the character that he depicted, who is, you know, a lonely, needy, and insecure woman, but who also has a bit of a megalomanical streak, there's no way that person wasn't going to take their time in the spotlight.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: So this feels a little bit inevitable. One of the things we can take away from stories like these is that when the public gets interested in a thing and then gets online, the public really can wreck some people's lives.
--:-- Noelle King: Yes. And even when I was watching the interview last night, Martha's interview, Fiona Harvey's interview, I felt pretty bad. I felt pretty bad. I was like, I don't know anything about her. I don't know that she deserves this.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: But she is maintaining her innocence. She's saying, I did not do this. And he had no right to do this to me.
--:-- Noelle King: Do you think there is an ethical way to be an engaged viewer of a show like Baby Reindeer?
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Year. It's complicated because I think Richard Gad, what he wanted to discuss with this show and what he wanted to bring up are the really nuanced pieces of having a crime committed against you, of being engaged with a person who is perhaps unwell in some way.
--:-- Noelle King: And he has argued that both he and Martha are victims. He says, I can't emphasize enough how much of a victim she is in So I think knowing that that's the centerpiece here, that should dictate perhaps how you engage with this particular show.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Other shows ask for different things, but this show was really about how difficult it can be just to be a person in the world to some degree. And I think that maybe should be a signal that we don't need to dig everything up.
--:-- Noelle King: At the same time, people are curious. People are bound to behave this way. And it's pretty hard to legislate how people behave about a piece of art once you put it out there.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: So I think this is just sort of par for the course these days if you are going to traffic in the line between truth and fiction.
--:-- Noelle King: Vox's Meredith Haggerty.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Today's show was produced by Hadi Mawajdeh and edited by Amin El-Sadi. Patrick Boyd engineered and Matthew Collette stepped into fact check.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Thank you. team.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: It's more than a deposit. It's landing your fundraise. The truth is, banking can do more. Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use.
--:-- Noelle King: Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs who use Mercury to do more for their business.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Mercury, banking that does more.
--:-- Noelle King: Nobody knows your customers better than your team, so give them the power to make standout content with Adobe Express.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: Brand kits make following design rules a breeze, and Adobe quality templates make it easy to create pro-looking flyers, social posts, presentations, and more.
--:-- Noelle King: You don't have to be a designer to edit campaigns, resize ads, and translate content. Anyone can in a click.
--:-- Meredith Haggerty: And collaboration tools put feedback right where you need it. See how you can turn your team into a content machine with Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on-brand content.
--:-- Noelle King: Learn more at adobe.com slash express slash business.
