--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Support for this Friday, January 11th, 2019 episode of Today Explained comes from Quip Electric Toothbrushes. The Quip Electric Toothbrush is used by over 1 million people. It starts at just $25 and your first set of refills is free at getquip.com slash explained. That's getquip.com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Good afternoon, federal employees! Good afternoon, union members! I'm honored to be with all of you here today. I applaud you and everyone who is rallying around the country, standing up and demanding that you be treated fairly.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): We have a message. We're fed up. We're fed up. We're fed up. We're fed up. We're fed up.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Lizzo, you report on Congress for Vox, and today is day 21 of the government shutdown, but it's a special day too. Why?
--:-- Li Zhou: It's the first day that federal workers aren't going to get a paycheck. And it's also the day that makes this shutdown the longest shutdown in U.S. history. Ever?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Yes. It ties today. By tomorrow, it'll be the longest. Unless they figure it out by the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. They still got some time.
--:-- Li Zhou: Okay. So we talked to you on our first episode of the new year about the shutdown. But back then, it wasn't really clear how long this would last. Is today going to make a difference? Is something going to feel different?
--:-- Li Zhou: Absolutely. It's the first day that you're seeing a real concrete effect for workers. I think before now, a lot of this felt somewhat theoretical and abstract, and people were making plans to cut costs and things like that. But when you aren't actually receiving that paycheck, I think it becomes very, very real.
--:-- Li Zhou: And we touched on this a little bit, I guess, last time we talked, but let's talk today about how different workers are being affected differently. There's sort of a list to run down here, right?
--:-- Li Zhou: Furloughed workers are off of work and they're not getting paid for it right now, but will probably get back pay when this is all over, historically speaking. What are they all doing in the meantime? They're just like sitting at home?
--:-- Li Zhou: Many furloughed workers are now looking for alternative sources of income to make up for their lack of pay, and that includes applying for unemployment benefits. And data actually shows that in the general D.C. area, almost 5,000 workers have applied for unemployment benefits.
--:-- [Audio clip of a furloughed worker]
--:-- Furloughed Worker: I can see me holding out maybe for another couple of weeks, but after that, I don't know what I'm going to do. I might have to try and apply for unemployment. I'm trying to hold out, hoping and praying that this shutdown will end soon, and I wouldn't have to do that.
--:-- Li Zhou: And that's an indication of how many people in a place where there are a lot of federal workers are searching desperately for alternative sources of money during this time. And this is like to meet the mortgage or to make rent or whatever it might be.
--:-- Li Zhou: Right, yeah. It's just to cover your basic bills that you need to pay every month and things that are coming up that you won't be able to because you don't have a paycheck.
--:-- Li Zhou: And what's an example of someone like this? I talked to a woman who works for the Federal Bureau of Prisons who said the shutdown is really putting pressure on her to meet all of these day-to-day costs.
--:-- [Audio clip of a woman who works for the Federal Bureau of Prisons]
--:-- Woman: I take care of my 70-year-old mom, you know, and I'm the sole breadwinner of my house. Although my husband works, but we live in an expensive area in Seattle. It's no different in California. We're way up there. I'm worried about medications for my mom. She's a cancer survivor. She needs all her medications. She's diabetic, you know, and it's just the worsen of getting my rent paid, my mother's medication, our medication in our household, you know, for our personal reasons.
--:-- Li Zhou: And throughout this fight, she's really feeling like she's being used as a political pawn.
--:-- Li Zhou: And so what about contract workers? Are they in the same boat, but like without the whole back pay thing? How are they affected by this?
--:-- Li Zhou: Contractors are probably the ones who are affected the most because they won't see that back pay at all. So the contractors I've talked to have been scrambling even more to figure out how they're going to cover the same costs that other government employees are facing as well.
--:-- Li Zhou: An example of a contract worker is like what, like a security guard at a federal agency, something like that? There are security guards. There are people who work in cafeterias. There's consultants, developers, you name it.
--:-- Li Zhou: And about 40 percent of the broader federal workforce is made up of contractors. So when you're talking about 800,000 federal employees affected by the shutdown, there's also thousands of other contractors who are feeling that same pain.
--:-- Li Zhou: OK. So all those people we just talked about are people who have been told do not work, do not come here. We are closed for business. There's a whole other set of people who are being told, what, you will not get paid, but you have to go to work.
--:-- Li Zhou: Yeah, right. Yeah, like show up, do the same job you've always been doing, but you're not guaranteed any immediate pay for it at the moment. So we're talking about Border Patrol, TSA, air traffic controllers, stuff like that, yeah?
--:-- Li Zhou: Yes exactly Yeah Essential employees are usually the employees who basically keep the fundamental operations of the country running
--:-- Li Zhou: So people like the Coast Guard like air traffic control folks that we literally just need to make sure that transportation systems disaster aid, things like that keep on running smoothly.
--:-- Li Zhou: So have there been any issues there, the fact that these essential workers are not getting paid?
--:-- Li Zhou: Yeah, one of the most widely, I think, talked about ones is that TSA agents have stopped showing up to work. Really?
--:-- Li Zhou: There's actually a significant uptick in the absence rates that TSA saw this year in the same time period compared to last year. And that's because they're trying to look for other jobs or they're trying to figure out ways that they can kind of continue to make ends meet during this time frame.
--:-- Li Zhou: And is going on strike an option? I mean, I imagine if the entire country's air traffic controllers said, we're not going to work today, someone would notice.
--:-- Li Zhou: Yeah, yeah. I think the thing is for federal employees, it's actually illegal to go on strike. What?
--:-- Li Zhou: There's a 1940s law that basically says federal employees can't go on strike because, ironically, it would cause a disruption in government services.
--:-- Li Zhou: So it's perfectly legal to not pay these federal employees, but it's not legal for them to say, we're not coming to work, we're on strike, we're organizing.
--:-- Li Zhou: Yeah. So the recourse they have is that they've filed a class action lawsuit against the federal government saying that it's illegal for the government to keep workers on the job without paying them.
--:-- Li Zhou: And that's very similar to a lawsuit that was filed in 2013 during the last shutdown that went on for longer. And workers actually won that lawsuit.
--:-- Li Zhou: What did that lawsuit do? I mean, if they won that lawsuit, why do they have to file a new lawsuit?
--:-- Li Zhou: That lawsuit basically guaranteed that the workers affected in that shutdown received double the pay that they were supposed to receive.
--:-- Li Zhou: Oh, wow. But this time around, it's a different set of workers. New people are affected, so they have to file it again.
--:-- Li Zhou: So I guess because so many of these essential employees are still going to work, it's sort of whatever non-essential means employees that we're seeing more issues in.
--:-- Li Zhou: And I've heard about some of these like food inspections and national parks, of course. What else is out there and what's going on in sort of all of these deemed non-essential places?
--:-- Li Zhou: There's such a wide range of people who are considered non-essential. And one of them, interestingly, are actually immigration judges. And so what you're seeing is potential years-long delays in the consideration of immigration cases, including cases for filing asylum.
--:-- Li Zhou: So that's one that's pretty nuts and not necessarily something that affects everybody but has a huge impact.
--:-- Li Zhou: You're also seeing farmers who are applying for loans are potentially going to see delays in when those loans are going to be approved.
--:-- Li Zhou: And farmers who are supposed to get aid because of the tariffs that have been implemented by the Trump administration will also potentially see delays in when they receive that aid.
--:-- [Audio clip of Harold Fuller Bennett]
--:-- Harold Fuller Bennett: My name is Harold Fuller Bennett. I'm a Freedom of Information Act analyst for the Forest Service. So, you know, that's a pretty small little corner of the government. but if over these past few weeks, if anyone's looking for government documents, records, information about what the Forest Service and the USDA is doing, they're not getting it.
--:-- [Audio clip of Ryan Smith]
--:-- Ryan Smith: My name is Ryan Smith, and I'm a program analyst at the Economic Development Administration within the Department of Commerce. The Economic Development Administration predominantly does work through grants, and so at some point, those grantees are also going to need to be paid, right? So at some point, they're going to ask to have their costs reimbursed.
--:-- Ryan Smith: If we're not there to answer the phone, if we're not there to get the email, they're not getting paid. At some point, they're going to need that. And they're not going to be able to pay their employees. So there's a cascading effect that goes all throughout the supply chain for hundreds and maybe thousands of projects that are going on right now throughout communities, throughout the country.
--:-- Li Zhou: And what about the national parks? I mean, it's easy for people to sort of shrug that one off, I guess, because it's just a park. It'll be fine. But then this week I read that people like went into Joshua Tree National Park and cut down trees to drive like four-wheelers around. Right.
--:-- Li Zhou: It's been devastating to see what people are doing at national parks, including Joshua Tree, because there aren't park rangers around to make sure that doesn't happen.
--:-- Li Zhou: And what we saw going around on Twitter was this horrible photo of folks who had cut down one of the iconic trees in the national park in order to drive four-wheelers around and have free reign of their own.
--:-- Li Zhou: And how about food inspections? I mean, that just inherently sounds essential. Should we all just be eating like DiGiorno frozen pizzas until this thing's over? Yeah, I mean the initial reporting, I think, about the food inspections was pretty frightening in that you're thinking that meats and vegetables and all those kinds of things aren't going to be inspected.
--:-- Li Zhou: But the FDA has since clarified that high-risk facilities, which are facilities that handle things like meat, are going to keep on getting inspected, whereas low-risk facilities, which handle things like cookies and crackers, are not during the shutdown.
--:-- Li Zhou: So there's a clear distinction in what will be affected by it.
--:-- Li Zhou: Yeah I mean today Friday January 11th 2019 this is now the United States entering uncharted waters right This is starting tomorrow the farthest we ever gone without full funding for the government Do we have any idea where the breaking point is when this sort of starts to get really out of control
--:-- Li Zhou: I think that's the scary thing about this shutdown is that it feels like it could go on for a really long time because both Trump and Democrats have made it very clear that they're not interested in caving to each other.
--:-- Li Zhou: And in the meantime, all of these workers, federal employees, contractors, they just have to make ends meet.
--:-- Li Zhou: That's right, yeah. Coming up on Today Explained, when and exactly how is this shutdown going to end?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): You know when you're like talking to someone and all of a sudden there's this lulling conversation. They say something, they finish. You don't want to just like snap back with something. And then all of a sudden you're sitting in a silence that's now gone on for like 10 seconds, 15 seconds. And you're just like, when is this silence going to end? one of my New Year's resolutions is to just always wait it out. If one of yours is to take better care of your mouth, the Quip electric toothbrush can help. It's recommended by a whole heap of American dentists. It's got these sensitive sonic vibrations that are gentle on the gums. It's got a two-minute timer that pulses every 30 seconds to remind you to switch sides.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Over a million people are using the Quip out there. It starts at just $25, and if you go to getquip.com slash explained right now, your first set of refills is free. That's G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explained.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Okay, so last week when we talked about the government shutdown, it all came down to Donald Trump's border wall. Trump wanted money for it, and he wouldn't sign anything until Democrats gave him the money. What's changed since then?
--:-- Li Zhou: I think what's been frustrating about this fight is that pretty much nothing has changed since it started in December. So what's happened in the interim?
--:-- Li Zhou: There have been some attempts at negotiations. This past weekend, Democratic and Republican staffers met with representatives from the White House to try to see what common ground looks like.
--:-- Li Zhou: And after that meeting, Democrats said they wanted anything that Trump has to offer in writing to make sure that he doesn't renege on promises that he's put out there.
--:-- Li Zhou: If we can come to some agreement, we want it in writing so the public can see it so it doesn't change.
--:-- Li Zhou: After Democrats demanded that, Trump put out a proposal that includes a $5.7 billion demand for wall funding, as well as $800 million that he is willing to offer for what they're calling humanitarian aid, which is actually something that Democrats have wanted.
--:-- Li Zhou: So that was something that's seen as a small concession. And it would go to providing better medical care, better facilities, that kind of thing for migrants that are coming in across the southern border.
--:-- Li Zhou: OK, so that $5.7 billion is exclusively for building barriers down at the border. And then there's some extra slush fund for helping people. Right.
--:-- Li Zhou: And the Democrats are not interested in that deal. Democrats aren't interested in giving any money to a kind of wall.
--:-- Li Zhou: And Trump has tried to reframe the conversation a bit by saying, instead of putting this money toward a concrete wall, it's going to a steel barrier. Steel slats. We don't use the word wall necessarily. But it has to be something special to do the job. Steel slats.
--:-- Li Zhou: And that that might change Democrats' minds because right now there is already fencing on the border and that is made of steel. So technically you could classify that as some sort of steel barrier.
--:-- Li Zhou: In response to that, Democrats have said that's not a concession they've asked for at all. And they are just completely uninterested at this point in anything beyond the border security money they've been willing to put forward.
--:-- Li Zhou: Is there anything that the Democrats have indicated that they would trade for this wall right now? Like, I don't know, a path to citizenship for Dreamers?
--:-- Li Zhou: In the past, that's been something that's discussed. And it was actually something that was offered almost exactly a year ago by Democrats to Trump. They said they would be willing to give Trump over $20 billion for the wall if he was willing to guarantee a path to citizenship for dreamers.
--:-- Li Zhou: They actually seemed very close to a deal. And at the last minute, Trump completely reneged. And that left a really bad taste in everyone's mouth.
--:-- Li Zhou: I don't think Democrats have any trust in the president at this point that he's willing to actually broker a deal. And so they're not keen to really offer anything if at the last minute he's going to change his mind again.
--:-- Li Zhou: And Trump has also said multiple times he's not particularly interested in approving any kind of DACA protections or path to citizenship this time around.
--:-- Li Zhou: There seems to be this sort of conflation of terms going on, border security, border wall, and sometimes Trump uses them sort of interchangeably. At this moment there is a debate over funding border security and the wall Democrats are pro security and not for the border wall right
--:-- Li Zhou: Right. There's a better way, a more effective way to protect, to secure our borders. And that is what the debate should be about.
--:-- Li Zhou: How much money do we spend on border security? Do we have any idea?
--:-- Li Zhou: The existing appropriations for the previous year put out $1.3 billion for border security. And this year, Democrats were actually open to approving even more, $1.6 billion, which would have covered about 65 miles of pedestrian fencing along the border.
--:-- Li Zhou: What Trump is asking for would cover around 234 miles of wall or steel barrier or whatever you want to call it.
--:-- Li Zhou: I think the distinction between the wall and the fencing that exists now is that the way that Trump has characterized the wall for a long time is that it would be this massive structure. And that is different from the fencing that currently exists.
--:-- Li Zhou: And on top of that, I think the wall is seen by many more symbolically as this racist trope that Trump kept on repeating during his campaign. So if Trump is still stuck on this wall because he feels like he owes it to his constituents from the campaign, what's the release valve? How does this end?
--:-- Li Zhou: The only breaking point that could be a factor is Senate Republicans, although that is looking increasingly unlikely as well.
--:-- Li Zhou: Up until this week, you saw Republicans, including Cory Gardner, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, saying they're down to sign funding bills without wall money. That was seen as potentially an option.
--:-- Li Zhou: But this week, Trump met with Republicans in order to kind of reaffirm party unity. And after that meeting, there's been very little inroads into any kind of rebellion against the president.
--:-- Li Zhou: A set of moderate Republicans have since tried to work on a deal. And Lindsey Graham actually said that those talks have since collapsed. And Lindsey Graham also said yesterday that he supported the president declaring a state of emergency. Right. To get this thing done. Right.
--:-- Li Zhou: Is that the only path forward for the president? It increasingly feels like it could be because he's boxed himself in.
--:-- Li Zhou: I think he sees a national emergency as a way to win this fight without having conceded to the Democrats in any way and saying that he won the wall, he won this debate.
--:-- Li Zhou: The issue is there are a lot of people, including Republicans, who think there's legal problems with Trump doing that. Right. And so there isn't exactly support from his own party for a move like this.
--:-- Li Zhou: And I think that's why there's been hesitation after he proposed it. We've seen many days where he hasn't, you know, moved forward with what he claimed that he wanted to do.
--:-- Li Zhou: And if he does do that, where exactly does the money come from? He said he could reappropriate funds from the military budget and that could come from an array of areas.
--:-- Li Zhou: I think one of the places he's floated is actually taking money from disaster aid that would have given money to folks affected in Puerto Rico by natural disasters. And that's prompted a ton of pushback.
--:-- Li Zhou: So it's looking like it's probably not going to happen that route.
--:-- Li Zhou: House Democrats have also indicated that if Trump goes this direction, they're ready to pursue a legal challenge of some kind. And it's likely they could have valid grounds because he's declaring a national emergency when there's actually no evidence that there's a national emergency.
--:-- Li Zhou: There was this moment at the end of last year where Nancy Pelosi was clearly going to become the Speaker of the House. And the president was saying very nice things about her. And it seemed like they could work together. And then, of course, Chuck and Nancy had that meeting with him. Didn't go well. And now the president's publicly saying it's easier to work with China than it is to work with Chuck and Nancy.
--:-- Li Zhou: Have these few days of our new year already soured the relationship between the president and the Democratic leadership for the years ahead?
--:-- Li Zhou: It appears to have set a bad tone, definitely, for things moving forward.
--:-- Li Zhou: There was some reporting in Politico that suggested the president thought after Nancy Pelosi was elected speaker, there would be less pressure on her to take such a hard line stance against the wall. And that clearly hasn't changed. She's won that position and she hasn't shifted where she stands on it.
--:-- Li Zhou: So it's going to be one interesting year. Absolutely. Absolutely.
--:-- Li Zhou: We're in association with Stitcher, and we are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. over a million people use the quip but we got a message from a listener recently saying that like his sister keeps stealing his quip so it might actually be more because people use other people's toothbrushes if you don't want to think about that too much you can think about this The Quip starts at just $25, and your first set of refills is free when you go to getquip.com slash explained. That's G-E-T-Q-U-I-P dot com slash explained.
