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--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Support for Today Explained comes from BetterHelp. Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained? Absolute truth.
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--:-- Host: We all have moments where we could have done better, like cutting your own hair. Oh, yikes. Or forgetting sunscreen, so now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab.com.
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--:-- Host: Today on the show, we're going to do something a little different. For the next while, you're not going to hear from me or a journalist. You're going to hear two mothers talking to their sons about the news. My name is Shauna Renee. I live in Washington, D.C., where I've been for about 25 years now. And I am an African-American woman.
--:-- Shauna Renee: Hi, I'm E.J. I'm a 14-year-old African-American male, and I'm from D.C. How are you feeling? How are you doing this week?
--:-- E.J.: I'm tired physically. You watched what happened in Minneapolis, yes. With George Floyd. And so you watched the reactions to it. So I guess my specific question to you is, how are you feeling about all of that? Is that part of your exhaustion?
--:-- Shauna Renee: I mean, I'm all for the reactions. You're for the reaction?
--:-- E.J.: Yeah, I'm all for it. When you look at it, they're listening to us. This whole reaction, they're actually hearing what we have to say. Like, George Floyd, the reason he died is because he used a counterfeit $20 bill. Like, you know how stupid that is to die over a counterfeit $20 bill?
--:-- Shauna Renee: If you're in trouble, why would you call the cops when you're scared?
--:-- E.J.: Like, that brings a lot of fear to people. Would you ever feel comfortable calling the police?
--:-- Shauna Renee: Probably not.
--:-- E.J.: You wouldn't feel comfortable?
--:-- Shauna Renee: If I'm in a situation where I have a choice and there's a way for me to get out of a situation without calling the cops, I wouldn't call the cops.
--:-- E.J.: The cops can twist any situation into what they want it to be and be like, oh, he looks suspicious and I fear for my life. And then all of a sudden your death is justifiable.
--:-- Shauna Renee: Do you feel protected then?
--:-- Shauna Renee: Who do you feel? Do you feel protected by anyone or anything?
--:-- E.J.: By my family. That's it. Honestly, I don't feel protected by the cops.
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--:-- Host: I'm Anna Marie Vegan, and I live in Chicago. I'm a parent, I'm a Christian, and I'm white.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I am Ben. I'm 13 years old. I am in seventh grade, and I am white.
--:-- Ben: What's most standing out to you about this week? What's most on your mind?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: What's most on my mind is that the people who are supposed to protect us have killed someone. I mean, there are police. Their motto is to serve and protect. And I mean, I'm sure not a lot of people feel protected when they just turn on the news right now.
--:-- Ben: I remember when you were in kindergarten, everybody was supposed to pick someone in the community, like who was your neighbor that you wanted to interview, that you respected and hear about their jobs. And you as a kindergartner wanted to interview a police officer. That was one of the professions you most respected.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: And has your thinking about the police changed a lot because of this week?
--:-- Ben: Oh, definitely. What's different? I mean, I feel like it's progressed a lot through my life. At first I thought like, you know, police were that stereotypical Halloween costume, you know. They carried a round baton, wore a blue suit, and locked criminals up. But now I can really see that police aren't robots. They're human beings, and they're not all perfect. And they act like humans. They can do bad things. They have done bad things in cases like this. They've killed someone.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I think that especially during this week, they've kind of misplaced my trust a little bit. Like, even if I'm not specifically the one who's going to be targeted for this, if I was with, like, a friend who was maybe not the same color as me, and we were in a situation where the police might be called, I would think about it before just instinctively dialing 911.
--:-- Ben: I think, you know, how everyone has cultures. We have a culture. We're Christians. We're Lutherans. We have a culture because of, you know, particular traditions we have and our socioeconomic class and stuff. And police have a culture. It's not even just about are they good individuals or bad individuals, but there's a problematic institutional culture that we have to address.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: And I think that's something that's different about these protests. It's not just hold these four police officers accountable. It's we need to change policing.
--:-- Ben: So how do you feel about calling the police?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I don't think I have as much fear as you do. I mean, I understand the difference between being a young Black man and being an older Black woman. I think their perception of me is probably different and their treatment will be different. I've been fortunate that I haven't had any negative interactions with police.
--:-- E.J.: But for you, if you and I were together or if something were to happen to you and let's say I needed to call the police about you like my son is missing, I definitely would hesitate.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I mean, yeah, I mean, sure. And then you're just going out the whole appearance. I mean, I don't look like I'm 14. That scares me.
--:-- E.J.: I'm going to be honest with you. If anything scares me, it's the fact that you're tall, that you don't look like you're 14.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I'm 13, but I'm about to turn 14 a couple of days. So, I mean, you're tall and you've got locks. And it worries me sometimes because I'm like, you're out here with the mind of a 13-year-old. But someone may come up on you and assume that you're older.
--:-- E.J.: I tell you of all the high-profile killings, the one that really hit me the hardest was Tamir Rice for that reason. He was only, what, 12 years old?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: Yeah, thanks so much.
--:-- E.J.: For a police officer to approach a young boy as if he were a threat, he didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. That scares me because I know that if you were afraid, any 13-year-old that is afraid may run because that's just your instinctual response. That is a response that's how we respond. We don't want to die. I don't want to die. And so you're afraid that if you if you don't run, you might die. I'm afraid that a cop is gonna take something the wrong way, think they're fearing for their life because of whatever paranoia they have, and then want to go out their way and just end me.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: And you know, that's stupid. That whole fear for your life is stupid. If you're that scared to be a cop, then you shouldn't have signed up for the job. Right. Like you signed up knowing that your life could be taken. Every single day you're on a job, on an active case, your life could be taken. Like we don't sign a contract when we're born saying that, oh, you know, you're black. So you, any chance there is, you could get killed by a cop. We don't know that. You chose that job. You chose to put your life on the line. We didn't.
--:-- E.J.: So if you're out here scared that black kids are going to take your life because their hands are in their pocket or they adjust their pants slightly or they look like they're reaching in their pants or whatever. And if you're scared to the point where you feel the need to kill innocent people based off of the little slight movements, then it's not cut out for you. You're stupid. Like, you're actually stupid. To not consider that. To not consider the fact that you have to take a risk.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: Cops have families. Cops have people too. But again, that's your choice. You signed up for that. You signed up to do that.
--:-- E.J.: What does it mean to you to be white?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: It means I have a lot of privilege. I have a lot of chances. And for one instance, we were driving in our car, and you got pulled over by a police officer. That was when we were in Wisconsin? Yes, your taillight was out. And you need your license. And you didn't have your proof of insurance. I had an expired one. You had an expired one. I hadn't had the updated one. That's what it was. You hadn't got the updated one in your car. And he was like, no problem. Don't let it happen again. Just go.
--:-- E.J.: And you brought up that probably wouldn't have happened if we had a different skin color or if we were a different ethnicity. And I think that's kind of what it means to be white.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: All right. So you're a black, you're a young black man in America. What does it mean to you? And then I guess more importantly, what would you like it to mean? What are you hoping one day it will mean if it's not the same thing?
--:-- E.J.: Being a young black man in America means that I'm subject to stereotypes. I always got to work two times harder than the next guy for half the credit. And it just means that I'm playing the hard mode of life. You're what? You know how in a video game you get the easy, normal, hard, whatever? So being black is like the hard mode, in essence, when you're looking at society.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: Do you feel shame or guilt for being white?
--:-- E.J.: Yeah. Why? Because I'm given these opportunities. And I know I'm only 13 years old, but I feel like I haven't really done much to give back for all those privileges I've taken advantage of.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: It's one thing to try to be aware that we're white and that we have unearned privilege, but that doesn't mean that you need to feel guilt or shame. You didn't ask to be born into the family you were born into or with the color of skin that you have.
--:-- E.J.: So what do you think we should do with our privilege? How do we not just marinate in white guilt that doesn't really help anything?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: We need to speak out. We need to show that we can be trusted. We really need to make amends. And I think we need to work together instead of just giving a one-sided apology for us when it does nothing for them.
--:-- E.J.: I also want you to know that even though there's a lot of things that make us mad and things that aren't going right, there's literally a sea of people of all colors and backgrounds right now saying we're not going to take this anymore and we want real change.
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: You're living a really critical moment of history. We all are.
--:-- E.J.: Well, I know it's critical, but that also just brings me to believe This is not the first time it has happened, and this will definitely not be the last. I'm like, how many more people have to die?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I feel like at the end of the day, his name is just going to be one on a list.
--:-- E.J.: Do you feel like kind of despairing sometimes?
--:-- Anna Marie Vegan: I do. I'm afraid that this is going to continue and that nothing's going to happen. I'm afraid that, I don't know, one of my friends will be hurt by a police officer or maybe not even by a police officer. Like there that one black man jogging and he got shot Ahmaud Arbery.
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--:-- Host: I'm Dr. Howard Stevenson, and I live in Chicago. I'm a clinical psychologist.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: I'm a director and a professor at UPenn's Graduate School of Education. I've done tons of work with teachers and parents to figure out the best ways to talk to kids about racism.
--:-- Host: When do you think parents should start having these conversations with their kids?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: Well, it's a great question. And there's this amazing research done by a colleague, a friend of mine, Walter Gilliam out of Yale, who does his work on preschool expulsions. And in his research, he's identified that Black students are significantly higher, like three to five times higher to be expelled. And it's really about the adult's overreaction to the behaviors that are developmental and normal for these children.
--:-- Host: I pose to parents sometimes, what if, you know, you knew that even in preschool, well-meaning teachers and maybe not so well might see your child as a problem when they not really being a problem? Would you then think about talking to your child about that?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: Feeling uncomfortable how they're being treated in a particular way. But children can learn early. And preschool to me seems like a very good time.
--:-- Host: You know, in the first half of the show, we heard from two parents who didn't seem to have much trouble talking with their kids about this kind of thing. But I know that it's a lot tougher for other parents out there. What are the biggest stumbling blocks to talking about race with kids? What have you found?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: What we find is that parents don't often want to do it. Parents of color sometimes different than white parents. White parents often don't talk about race for a host of reasons. The big issue is, I don't want to damage my child, and I don't want to say anything scary to my child.
--:-- Host: I say well, you know, if you think about it, parents say things scary to their children all the time, right? You know, and I was with a group of fifth graders in Chicago once, and I asked them, do your parents ever say anything scary to you? And they said, yep, don't talk to strangers and don't take candy from strangers.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: And I said, okay, great. Has anybody that you didn't know come up to you and offer you candy? And they said, nope, never happened. Right? But we're real prepared for it, right? They could all say, we know exactly what to do.
--:-- Host: What about these racial encounters that happen way more frequently, but they're not prepared for them? You wouldn't do that with algebra. You wouldn't say, look, my child has a real fear of fractions. I'm going to leave him out for the next three weeks.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: And that's the same way we would approach dealing with racial matters. If those issues of discrimination happen, well, why wouldn't you practice? Why wouldn't you give them skills? Why wouldn't you give them tools and homework? It's teaching.
--:-- Host: We had a guest on the show yesterday, a Black father, who said he looks forward to the day when Black parents don't have to have the talk about race with their kids. Is part of the issue here that Black parents have been having these kinds of conversations with their kids for generations, and it's sort of new to white parents?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: As a matter, of course, yes. But I do think there's a particular dance, though, in white families that sees it but doesn't want to see it. But, you know, the moment your child actually, let's say, has a friend of color, gets stopped by the police, your children could be traumatized by witnessing that, by also being helpless to deal with it.
--:-- Host: You can't escape through avoidance. We can't all just pretend it isn't there. But all parents struggle with this, right? How are the struggles different between, you know, black and white families?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: We have actually a program with Dr. Rihanna Anderson and I created called Embrace, which really basically is teaching families of color how to talk to their kids about race. And so happens that just because you're a person of color doesn't mean you can manage the stress of these conversations, right? And what we've learned is that you can't just start with the conversation with your child because as you start to talk, many of the parents start remembering their own traumas. And they have images, and it intrudes in what they want to say to kids.
--:-- Host: So we split up parents from kids and have the kids talk about their life experiences, have the parents talk about their life experiences, and it's like night and day difference. You know, managing your own trauma allows you to be much more prepared.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: I know you talked about oscillating between wanting to cry and wanting to choke someone right now, but I hope you also find it heartening that more people than I've ever seen in my lifetime seem to care right now.
--:-- Host: What do you think is most important for parents to do in this moment? What do you want to see change?
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: I would say for all the years of civil rights protests, you need to have a teacher's guide and a lessoning behind it so that everybody knows, here's why we did that. I think you need a teacher teaching along or you need parents, you know, saying, here's why I decided to take you to the protest. Here's why I want you to remember the next time for your children why we're doing this is because if there's injustice anywhere, it's a threat to justice everywhere, including you and our neighborhood and our people.
--:-- Host: All right. And I think these incredible acts of bravery need to be followed up with a plan to teach people why, because there's so many people who still don't really get it.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard.
--:-- Host: And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity.
--:-- Dr. Howard Stevenson: And so in a real sense our nation's summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters of delay.
--:-- Host: Today Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Sean Rameswaram for him. I make the show with Noam Hassenfeld, Jillian Weinberger, Bridget McCarthy, Halima Shah, Amina Al-Sadi, Muj Zadeh, Afim Shapiro, and Will Reed's been helping out too. Cecilia Lay is our fact checker. Music comes from Noam and the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. And Liz Nelson is Vox's editorial director of podcasts.
--:-- Host: If you have people in your life who are struggling to understand this moment and its significance, I hope you'll share our work, especially from this week with them, from explaining Antifa and the Abolish the Police movement to exploring how police unions impede accountability. And we even have a few pointers on how to be anti-racist. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing. Happy birthday, Ejaz.
