--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from BetterHelp. Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained? Absolute truth.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Happy Election Day. Did you vote? Maybe you didn't because you've got kids and one of them got sick and you were late for work and your boss was pissed and then you had to leave anyway to take your kid to the doctor. Say aww.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then you had to catch up with all of your work when you got home. And then you passed out and you woke up early to the results and felt really guilty and like you let your democracy down. If you felt that way, you wouldn't be alone. Only about half of the country typically votes in presidential elections.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This year's turnout is looking significantly better, maybe as much as 65% will vote, but a lot of them will have to deal with super long, socially distanced lines, or deal with mail delays, or worry about whether their ballot will really get counted. It is not hard to look at our elections and feel like we're doing things wrong.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, since our team will be busy voting and watching results today, we're going to issue a reminder of how our elections could be better. We're going to revisit our episode from the last big U.S. election day, the 2018 midterms.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On that November day, we took you to, of all places, Australia. Election day in Australia is always on a Saturday. We pioneered Saturday voting. We thought it would be more inclusive. It's a festive sort of occasion. It's usually held in schools. There are sausage sizzles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sausage sizzles. Here they call it the democracy sausage. Democracy sausage, the 2016 Australian Word of the Year. Polling stations have become much more than a place to cast your vote, with families and charities gathering for sausage sizzles and fundraisers at voting booths across Australia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Election happening, hot sausage and bread, way to go, some onion. It's the soundtrack of Australia. And we had a lady having two sausages for cats. With extra sauce for her cat. Every polling place, someone's serving sausages and serving them to people as they go in to vote or come out from voting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's just part of our routine, it's a barbecue, it's like a holiday occasion. What if you're a vegetarian? Oh, they always have a veggie burger. They have these websites beforehand that sort of advertise where they're going to be and where the best sausage sizzles are going to be and stuff like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or lentil burgers or whatever. You know, a lot of guys laugh at it. Friends go, you know, it's a sausage competition, but it's a major part of your business. The queues aren't long. Australians will turn up in their bathing suits, literally just a speedo or their bikini.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's not like you have to get time off work or you have these long queues in the States. They're only in there for 10 minutes or something and then they're out. It sounds really fun.
--:-- Lisa Hill: What if you're elderly or you sprained your ankle and you can't make it to the party? We have mobile polling, postal polling, we can have pre-polling, you can have assisted polling.
--:-- Lisa Hill: So we've got electoral commissions here that are very well funded and they're also scrupulously independent. So their job is to maximise voting inclusion. Whatever, if you're approaching maternity, they'll bring out voting papers to the hospital, they'll take them out to prisons, they'll take them out to remote areas so Indigenous people can vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: 15 electoral officers are crisscrossing the state, covering thousands of kilometres with ballot papers in hand. We have 95% voting participation here. You just let them know and they will help you.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Lisa Hill's a politics professor at the University of Adelaide in Australia, a place where voting is a party and they'll literally bring the polling station to you. Gladly. There's nothing they like more than getting your vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: It's not like you have to register as a particular, you know, a Democrat or Republican. There's no ID requirements. It's an honor system. It's got very low levels of corruption, extremely high levels of trust in the outcome.
--:-- Lisa Hill: So you never sort of have contested outcomes because the electoral commissions are so squeaky clean and organized, extremely organized and extremely apolitical as well. You mentioned Australia has 95% turnout. Has it made government work any better?
--:-- Lisa Hill: Yeah, for example, in the 90s, there was a terrible massacre, a gun massacre here. One of the most infamous days in Australia history. Martin Bryant shot dead 35 people at Port Arthur and changed the lives of many others forever.
--:-- Lisa Hill: They tightened the laws on gun ownership much more strictly. Yeah. And then they got all the guns out of the system by buying guns back from people, and Australians got together and agreed that this was a good idea, and they all surrendered their guns.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Australia's government confiscated and destroyed nearly 700,000 firearms, reducing the number of gun-owning households by half. Government's responsive and we expect action and we get it. Sounds nice. Because we vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Yeah. It's not rocket science. Governments are responsive to voters. And if everybody's voting, you're going to have a more agile and responsive parliament. And what happens when you don't? What would it look like if Australia had 50% voter turnout? We look like America, mate.
--:-- Lisa Hill: We don't want that. I'm sorry. I know you love your country, but we don't want 50% turnout. We want the poor to vote. We want homeless people to vote. We want Indigenous people to vote. We want people with disabilities to vote. We want everyone to vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: What do you think happens in a democracy when, say, half the people aren't voting? Why is voting so important for the entire population? First of all, whenever you've got turnout that dips below sort of 80, even 90, automatically your turnout will be uneven.
--:-- Lisa Hill: It'll just be prosperous people voting. Homeowners, generally white people, people for whom English is the first language. The worse off you are, the less likely you are to vote in a low turnout election.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And we all know the government just directs its attention to voters. So when the poor don't vote, the government just gives tax breaks to the rich and everything else to the rich. And middle-class people as well.
--:-- Lisa Hill: So poverty starts becoming trenched. Certain minorities just can't get out of this vicious cycle of government neglect, then they feel that government neglects them so they don't want to vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: The more apathetic you get, the less likely you are to vote, and everyone gets themselves into a vicious cycle. Sounds like a really good reason to make voting mandatory.
--:-- Lisa Hill: It is a good reason to make voting mandatory. It's funny you should mention that, Sean, because voting is mandatory here. This whole time I thought we were talking about sausage sizzles and bringing your swimming trunks to the voting stations, and I thought it was just a big party in Australia, but it's totally mandatory too?
--:-- Lisa Hill: It's mandatory and a big party night. Coming up on the program, how Australia convinced an entire country it had to vote. And could we do that here in these United States?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Broughton. Deals. Brands. Wow.
--:-- Lisa Hill: When exactly did compulsory voting pass in Australia? How did this happen? It's been mandatory since 1924 in federal elections and earlier than that in state elections.
--:-- Lisa Hill: In the 20s, turnout dipped to below 60. We're freaking out. We thought, that is egregious. It was debated for 15 minutes. That's it in the parliament. That sounds like a good idea. So we introduced compulsory voting and it shot up 95 in the first election or something like that.
--:-- Lisa Hill: How did Australia react? Were people upset? Were people pleased to immediately start voting? How did introducing compulsory voting change voter turnout? I think there was a bit of grumbling.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But because we had compulsory voting, then we decided we were going to have really well-funded electoral commissions. So we had these electoral commissions that made the elections quite pleasant and easy.
--:-- Lisa Hill: We already had the Saturday voting. And then when everyone saw how turnout rose, government responsiveness got better. And it got more responsive to everybody People just thought this is not a bad deal People have to vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: What happens if they don't vote? You can make people feel like they're criminals when they fail to vote. Sure. What happens is the Electoral Commission sends you a letter and says, I noticed you didn't vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And if you send a letter back saying, I was sorry about that, I was sick. It's an honor system. They don't check. You don't have to give a medical certificate or I had an accident.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But if you don't respond to their letter, then you get a $20 fine. And that actually works. That's enough to make it work, yeah. I mean, because it's kind of symbolic. It's symbolising that it's the law.
--:-- Lisa Hill: If you don't follow up, it doesn't work, but you've got to follow up in a way that's not alienating people and making them feel like they're a criminal. It's not criminal activity, failing to vote, but you do have to vote because we all have to pitch in.
--:-- Lisa Hill: What happens if you don't pay that $20 fine? Then it goes up to $50. And then if the third fine you don't pay, then you get summoned to court. But say there's people that are exempt. For example, if you're homeless, you're exempt from being required to vote, and also you don't get fined.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But it usually doesn't. People just usually just pay the $20 fine. Is there any chance you could go to jail for not voting in Australia? A couple of people in the past have spent like a day in jail.
--:-- Lisa Hill: You know, I think that's a bit much myself. That hasn't happened for decades, but it has happened a couple of times. And some people have deliberately got themselves put in jail.
--:-- Lisa Hill: That's the thing. You mentioned earlier that the government is more responsive in Australia, maybe as a result of compulsory voting, but it's not like compulsory voting will fix all your problems, like poverty and corruption, right?
--:-- Lisa Hill: We've got poverty, we've got corruption, but just not as much as you, that's all. I mean, I'm very sure if we didn't have mandatory voting here, we'd have turnout levels in the 60s.
--:-- Lisa Hill: It's not like we're these awesome super people that are better and nicer than everyone else. But the law has created these norms around civic duty and responsibility, it's just like a nudge.
--:-- Lisa Hill: In the same way like you're made to wear your seatbelt, you feel that it's paternalism, but in retrospect, after you have a smash, you can see that wasn't a bad idea.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Because if you ask people how they feel about it, between 70 and 75% of Australians, no matter what's going on, they'll still say that they think compulsory voting is an okay idea. And there's always going to be around 30% that don't like it, but the feeling isn't strong enough to want to get rid of it because people aren't 100% sure they would like the results, I think.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Do you think implementing a system like that would work here the way it seems to have worked in Australia in the 1920s? Yes, it would work extremely well.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And I've written a paper on this and in the paper I've argued, and I think I've shown that there's no reason why you couldn't have it because some people say there are constitutional impediments or all kinds of other impediments.
--:-- Lisa Hill: You can say that all you like, it's not unconstitutional, but there'd be so much resistance because it seems like such an alien idea to people that haven't grown up with it. Your rights culture is more pronounced than us.
--:-- Lisa Hill: We're not so big on our constitutional rights and our individual rights because we're more of a parliamentary culture. It's like it was easier to take guns away from us as well.
--:-- Lisa Hill: I think it could work very well in the States and it would solve so many of the problems you're having there, to be honest. Your problems will be solved if minorities voted, if the poor voted.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Who are we kidding? But a lot of problems would be at least ameliorated if everybody voted. I can see a lot of people, if the United States federal government, for instance, was to impose compulsory voting, saying, you can't tell me what to do.
--:-- Lisa Hill: This is America. The federal government does not tell me where I need to be at any time or day. People always say things like, well, democracy is supposed to be about freedom. It's supposed to be about voluntarism.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But, you know, I always say, well, first of all, voluntary activity is not the defining feature of democracy. Self-government is. The people being sovereign. And the people really can't be sovereign if they're not all there.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And then when they're all there, you get these other kinds of freedoms unleashed. Freedom to be treated without discrimination by a government instead of government pork barrelling and pandering to the well-off.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Freedom to have a decent standard of living, freedom to have free schools. A good example is taxation, which of course is quite a big infringement on personal freedom, much more so than voting.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But we sort of recognise that we need to pay our taxes if we want to go on a road or get anywhere. It's no point in having all your own money if you can't go anywhere, you know, and it's not safe.
--:-- Lisa Hill: You don't have security or you don't have basic services or jury duty or compulsory school education. These are all far more burdensome impositions on personal autonomy, but most people sort of accept them because they see that there's a collective benefit from it and they couldn't really live a decent life unless they gave up some freedoms and contributed the tax or contributed to the jury system or sent their children to school or whatever.
--:-- Lisa Hill: This is how you get democracy to work. I wonder, you know, one thing I feel like compulsory voting wouldn't fix is the fact that a lot of people in this country, and I'm sure that country, don't know a whole lot about their candidates who are running for office or the positions and platforms of their candidates.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Has compulsory voting in Australia done anything to fix or address that? Yeah, it makes people more alert. People actually do know more about their candidates here and not just here, but in other compulsory voting regimes.
--:-- Lisa Hill: So living in a compulsory voting regime makes you more politically sophisticated because they know they're going to have to vote. They just pick up a lot of incidental information.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Jill Shepard, who a political scientist here, someone I know, she done a study that shown that as well. So it makes you smarter and more informed as well, but the standards of comportment around elections I think are a bit higher here.
--:-- Lisa Hill: I'm sorry, I mean to insult your country. I'm not really insulted, but somehow I feel like you're not done insulting the United States. But what other countries have tried compulsory voting? It's not just Australia, is it?
--:-- Lisa Hill: No, I mean, the Netherlands had it and they went along very merrily. Then they got rid of it. God knows why. And then I think a lot of people regretted it. Belgium still has it Costa Rica Vanuatu and Samoa are just moving to it To fight corruption
--:-- Lisa Hill: There's lots of different places that have had it at various times. But you know it's a bit hard to say Unless it's sort of enforced The two best examples would probably be Belgium and the Netherlands Who did enforce it But they had high levels of satisfaction with it as well
--:-- Lisa Hill: You've got to do it a certain way Otherwise you're just going to alienate people You said the Netherlands had it but then got rid of it Why did they get rid of it? Oh, they just had a brain fart.
--:-- Lisa Hill: I mean, there was no good reason. What usually happens is a party on the right gets into power and then they just manoeuvre to get rid of it. It's under threat here all the time by different parties that try and get rid of it.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Really? Yes, because they want to control the sort of people that might vote. But here the parties on the right aren't 100% sure it would work for them, but in other places they feel secure that if they got rid of compulsory voting, less poor people would vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Which is true. It's not that hard to do if it's not enshrined in the Constitution, which it is in here, and I don't think it was there. It's just an act of parliament. But then once you get rid of it, it's very hard to bring back in.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Are there any other ideas out there, alternatives to compulsory voting that would increase turnout? Yeah, there's a million things you can do. You can move voting to a Saturday.
--:-- Lisa Hill: You can put polling booths in shopping malls. You can give people incentives to vote, although that's constitutional in most states and here too. But some American states have tried it, like free donuts or a free chiropractic adjustment to vote.
--:-- Lisa Hill: But all the things that I could make a list of to stimulate turnout, if you did them all at once, you still wouldn't get the same effect that you get just with compulsory voting.
--:-- Lisa Hill: That's the only thing on its own that can raise turnout into the 90-plus percentage range, and it's the only thing that will keep it there.
--:-- Lisa Hill: It certainly sounds like a great idea, and it certainly seems like intrinsic to democracy, and yet so many democracies were built without compulsory voting. Why do you think that is? I don't know.
--:-- Lisa Hill: I mean, it's actually a good question. I don't know why, but democracy is crumbling. I mean, look outside your window, mate. Yours is really in a bit of a, I'm sorry, it's not in very good shape.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And so this is something that can save your democracy. Democracy is not a constitutional form, it's an activity. It's performative and we all have to perform it because what people forget is to be a real democracy, a true democracy of the people, by the people, for the people, has to be performed by the people.
--:-- Lisa Hill: And democracy requires work. Not much work, just a little bit of work. And if everyone does their fair share, you just do it, 10 minutes, off to the beach. That's all there is. A sausage sizzle. A sausage, your bathers.
--:-- Lisa Hill: I swear to God I've got pictures of people in their bathers or in a sarong or, you know, it's hilarious. It's something we all have to do so we can all then enjoy the benefits of living in a true democracy.
--:-- Lisa Hill: So it's kind of a paradox. You have to give up a little bit of freedom to live in freedom. Thanks, Lisa. Wish us luck today, huh? Good luck. You're going to need it.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Thanks. Yeah, I hope there's high voter turnout. I hope there's high turnout. Do you think there will with these elections? The last turnout was 36%, brother, and I don't mean to make fun of you, but that is pretty piss-wee.
--:-- Lisa Hill: Don't you think? Professor Lisa Hill. The piss-weak turnout she was mocking was from the 2014 midterm election. That was the most recent midterm when I spoke to her in 2018.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Her mocking must have worked, because in 2018, we got the highest voter turnout in a midterm in a century. Here's hoping today, brings the highest presidential voter turnout in a century, too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram for him. This is Today Explained. The team includes Will Reed, Amina al-Sadi, Muj Zadi, Halima Shah, and Noam Hassenfeld, who contributes music, along with the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Extra help this week from Bird Pinkerton. Cecilia Lay checks our facts. Afim Shapiro is our engineer. Golda Arthur is our supervising producer. And Liz Kelly Nelson is Vox's editorial director of podcasts. Today, Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
