--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about the Trump administration's threat to Wikipedia. Joining me is journalist Stephen Harrison. Stephen, thanks for being here.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, what's the best thing you've ever stumbled upon on Wikipedia?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: One of my favorites was buried deep in the Rice Krispies entry, better known as Rice Bubbles, in Australia and New Zealand, according to Wikipedia. I digress. About four or five scrolls deep, right near the end of the entry, there's a subheading which reads Snap, Crackle, and Pop Sound.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs]
--:-- Stephen Harrison: It states that the cereal is marketed on the basis of the noises it produces when milk is added to the bowl. The onomatopoeic noises differ by country and language.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's amazing.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And at this point, I was like, go on. Turns out in Danish, it's piff, puff, puff. In Swedish, it's piff, paf, puff. In German, it's nisper, nasper, nusper, kkk. Weird, Spanish, pim, pam, pum. Finnish, ricks, racks, pocks. French, crick, crack, crock.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs] I love Wikipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Most of us do. But the Trump administration doesn't. And they're threatening the free encyclopedia. How come?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's a great question. Let's dive into it. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Didn't know that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I've never met an AI agent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. Support for this show comes from strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I'm a journalist who has covered Wikipedia for the past eight years for sites like Wired and Slate. I'm also the author of The Editors, which is a suspense novel inspired by Wikipedia. And outside of that, I'm a lawyer and my practice area is IT transactions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you write a lot about Wikipedia and you even wrote a book about Wikipedia called The Editors. Does that mean that you are a Wikipedia editor?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Well, I'd say I'm a low-key Wikipedia editor. I'm the type who fixes typos, uploads photos. I spent some time working on an article about the Stonely P, which is my favorite bar and restaurant here in Dallas that's really famous.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I'm not like an extensive Wikipedia editor. And I think it really has to do with personality. Like I'm really driven to do investigative journalism and reporting. And so I research a story and it gets published in a newspaper somewhere. And then that article ends up as a source, a reliable source that's linked on Wikipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So I feel like I'm contributing to Wikipedia in that way more so than the actual editing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you seem like the person to ask, what is happening with Wikipedia right now?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: The acting U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C., Ed Martin, sent a letter to the Wikimedia Foundation. And the Wikimedia Foundation is the nonprofit organization that helps operate Wikipedia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what does the letter say?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: He said that, It has come to my attention that the Wikimedia Foundation, through its wholly owned subsidiary, Wikipedia, is allowing foreign actors to manipulate information and spread propaganda to the American public.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's a pretty serious accusation.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: In light of these concerns, my office seeks information pertaining to Wikimedia's compliance with the laws governing its tax-exempt status.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are a lot of consequences if Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation lose its tax-exempt status. One, they'd have to pay taxes, right?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: You know, state and federal taxes. And, of course, Wikipedia doesn't really have a way other than donations of bringing in money. Wikipedia famously doesn't have ads. It's not selling your personal information like every social media site.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so there'd be a lot less funds for the technical infrastructure of Wikipedia, the servers. There'd be a lot less staffing and educational initiatives.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And I also just think that people would be a lot less likely to donate to the Wikimedia Foundation if it became a for-profit enterprise. People want to donate to the nonprofit idealistic goal of a free internet encyclopedia, and they don't want to donate to just another big tech company.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Where is this letter coming from?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I think the conservatives in recent years, not always, but in recent years, have really decided that they have a bone to pick with Wikipedia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do leftists really now control the editing?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Well, it's working side by side with the media. This is not the first time that we've seen a kind of unspoken collusion between Wikipedia editors and their friends in the media.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Musk made headlines by offering Wikipedia $1 billion, but with one unforgettable condition. The platform must rename itself Dickipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So Wikipedia doesn't reflect a MAGA or America First perspective.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you go to the article on January 6th, it's going to describe it as a riot. It's going to speak to the violence, all the things that were reported at the time.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Whereas Ed Martin, this DOJ prosecutor that Trump appointed, would say, well, it was like a big party. It was a celebration, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's Wikipedia's first and foremost, not really reflecting the MAGA or America First point of view.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Then secondly, there's a specific issue with how Wikipedia has been describing the conflict in Gaza, the Israel-Gaza war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, a new report by the Anti-Defamation League has found evidence of pervasive anti-Israel and anti-Semitic bias on Wikipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Wikipedia editors will no longer use the Anti-Defamation League as a source for entries on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Wikipedia articles on that will say things like various human rights experts and organizations have described Israel's actions as war crimes, right?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And they're drawing from the sources that say that. And so organizations like the Heritage Foundation have pledged to go after individual Wikipedia editors to target them and intimidate them and try to get that information and that content removed from Wikipedia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then lastly, I would say that we see this in a lot of authoritarian regimes around the world. China has blocked all language editions of the online encyclopedia Wikipedia Wikipedia co Jimmy Wales has said he would rather have no Wikipedia in China than comply with any form of censorship.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: We have in Russia, they have tried to fine and they have fined Wikipedia several times. On February 28, a Russian court fined the Wikimedia Foundation 2 million robles for misinformation about the Russian military from Wikipedia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Russian MPs voiced outrage that Wikipedia described Russia's capture of Crimea as an annexation.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And then countries like Saudi Arabia have arrested Wikipedia editors for putting views on the encyclopedia that go against the state.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think that a lot of authoritarian governments don't like Wikipedia. They don't like this independent source of knowledge that they can't control.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: In 2018, the Atlantic magazine called Wikipedia the last bastion of shared reality.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It sounds like from what you're saying is going on right now with Wikipedia and the Trump administration, that's not the case anymore.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: How long has it been the case? Is this simply a Trump thing or is there something deeper going on in the United States?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think there's something deeper going on because Elon Musk is famously one of the biggest critics of Wikipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: But now, back in 2017, he said, I love Wikipedia. It just keeps getting better and better.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now, more recently, he's been tweeting that Wikipedia should rename itself, quote unquote, Wokipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: He's been getting his followers on X and saying, hey, you shouldn't donate to the foundation. Since legacy media propaganda is considered a valid source by Wikipedia, it naturally simply becomes an extension of legacy media propaganda.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Defund Wikipedia until balance is restored.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So I think that there's just been a really significant effort, particularly from the right wing, whether that's Musk or the Heritage Foundation and now Ed Martin, to discredit Wikipedia and tarnish its reputation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there bias on Wikipedia? I mean, obviously, it is footnoted. But I remember, you know, back in college when my professors would say, like, and don't use Wikipedia as a source, as if it were some sort of, you know, information wasteland.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I feel like it eventually grew out of that negative space it was in. And now it feels like it's, what, upsetting the right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's fair to say that Wikipedia has had a pretty big reputational change over the years.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I remember that in college myself. You know, in the early days, people were saying, this is anarchy, right? You know, anyone can edit this. How could you possibly trust it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We all remember Stephen Colbert's phrase, truthiness, but he actually had another one, wikiality.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Last year, I defined the concept of wikiality. When Wikipedia becomes our most trusted reference source, reality is just what the majority agrees upon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But here are a couple main transitions in the story of Wikipedia's credibility. One was in 2005, Nature ran this article comparing Encyclopedia Britannica's scientific articles and Wikipedia's encyclopedia articles.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And what they found is they were roughly about the same amount of errors between them, that they were basically the same in accuracy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so that was a big credibility boost for Wikipedia as opposed to the traditional print encyclopedia model.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And I also think that in terms of Wikipedia just getting better, I mean, it just got better because there were more eyes on it. There was the mobile revolution. People could look at Wikipedia pages really quickly and say, hey, this is wrong. I want to fix it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so that just made Wikipedia better and better.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And so we get to the point by 2018, Facebook and YouTube are starting to link to Wikipedia pages when there's a piece of content that might have misinformation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So even today, if you look up flat earth theory on YouTube, you'll see the Wikipedia page for flat earth theory that says that it's been debunked and that it's pseudoscientific and that we know that the earth is not in fact flat.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So Wikipedia throughout the years gets more and more credible, more and more thorough. And yet here we are in 2025 and it's in the crosshairs of the federal government.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How has Wikipedia responded to this threatening letter from the Trump administration?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Well, the Wikimedia Foundation first put out a statement saying that it's committed to its principles, which include neutral point of view, no original research, the kinds of things that make the articles the way they are.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It made the point that the foundation, the entity that the Trump DOJ sent the letter to isn't actually the one who's editing the articles. That's the community of volunteers around the world.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And it said that Wikipedia in many ways is one of the last sites that fulfills the promise of the early internet and that it's non-profit and that it's designed to educate and not persuade people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will say that some Wikipedia editors are saying, hey, the non-profit Wikipedia Foundation is headquartered in San Francisco in the United States, but this has always been a global project, a free encyclopedia that anyone can use.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And so the Wikipedia editors themselves are saying, hey, is this maybe time to move to Germany or some other country in the EU that isn't experiencing what Wikipedia editors are perceiving as the democratic backsliding under the Trump administration?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. How do you say Wikipedia in German?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Oh, you got me there. Deutsch Wikipedia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know. Wikipedia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: More ahead with Stephen on the man behind this threatening letter to Wikipedia. Will his story intersect with Nazism? Place your bets now.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR. What's in your life kit?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I'm asking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They didn't ask that. Every day you have to make choices that might shape the direction of your life, but you can't flip to the back of the book to find an answer key.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Instead, you can listen to the Life Kit podcast from NPR. Life Kit offers real stories about common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Enough from me. Go listen to the show, LifeKit. It's a podcast from NPR.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wikipedia. Okay, today, Explain is back. Stephen Harrison, when we left off, we were talking about this guy, Ed Martin, who is at the center of this Trump administration fight with Wikipedia. Tell us who Ed Martin is.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So Ed Martin is the acting U.S. attorney in D.C. appointed by Trump. So he was appointed by Trump day one, and he hasn't yet been confirmed by the Senate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he comes out of Missouri, which in the organization that he was working with there is called the Eagle Forum.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: The Eagle Forum was founded by Phyllis Schlafly. The biggest myth connected with the Equal Rights Amendment is that it has something to do with equal pay for equal work. It doesn't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She's very famously an opponent of the Equal Rights Amendment.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I'm convinced that I speak for the majority of women. They don't want to be treated just like men.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In that organization, the Eagle Forum is very much anti-LGBT, anti-feminist, just an ultra-conservative organization that really focuses on social conservative issues.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I would say most women would like to have a husband and children. If they devote their prime years of childbearing years, and when they have good looks and good figure and virtue, if they pass all those by and devote it to working 60 hours a week in a profession, time passes them by.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it's really two things that made him become part of the Trump orbit. One, he came out really early for Trump, and then he repeatedly boosted Trump in the media.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So he co-authored a book with Phyllis Schlafly called The Conservative Case for Trump. And this was really early. This is 2016.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He has this podcast called The Pro-America Report. This is the Pro-America Report with Ed Martin. So much happening.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I think the title we put on this program is Trump's winning. Trump's winning. America's winning. It's unbelievable, really.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He just continuously boosted Trump. And people feel great. The market's way up. There's talk of deals. There's talk of peace in the world. There's talk of progress. Trump is winning over and over again.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Then he appeared on Russian state media outlets. Who's got the power to use the woke movement and the cancel culture to damage how we're living together? That's what's happening in America.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's been on Russian state media over 100 times trying to promote Trump's image.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I'm a member of the 74 million club. 74 million Americans voted for this guy, Donald Trump. And they didn't vote, as you point out, for all of his policies in office. They voted for a personality who was fighting on their side, who believed that we could be America first.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we know that Trump famously likes TV. This is going to be great television, I will say that.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And Martin just jumped on TV a lot and really praised Trump early and often, right from the very beginning.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so he's kind of without a position, and he hasn't landed as a politician himself. So I think he was probably really happy when he caught the call from Trump to take up this position as U.S. attorney in D.C.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Tell us about that gig. What's the day-to-day of U.S. attorney?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So U.S. attorney anywhere is the top prosecutor in the district. But in D.C., that's especially important because of all the federal agencies that are there.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: It's obviously the headquarters of the federal government. So the prosecutor is supposed to do everything in the district from handling prosecutions for minor drug cases to murder to all the civil litigation and lawsuits that go on.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And lately, Ed Martin has been sending a lot of these threatening letters to various nonprofit organizations that he has political disagreements with.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: He has sent a similarly threatening letter to the New England Journal of Medicine to CHEST, which is a medical journal that doctors who specialize in the lungs and CHEST read.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he says, you need to start including a variety and a diversity of opinion in your medical coverage.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And so instead of just reporting or including studies that the New England Journal of Medicine thinks are scientifically credible, he wants them to report more outlier or alternative medicine and include that in the coverage for doctors.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: His use of this office so far, is it in line with previous U.S. attorneys for the District of Columbia or is he, I don't know, pushing the boundaries?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: I say right from the very beginning it been pushing the boundaries For one Ed Martin defended a lot of the January 6th accused criminals right
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when he arrives as the prosecutor in D.C., he finds himself in the unusual position of being named on both sides of the case. He's both the prosecutor and the defense.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So, I mean, that's never happened before, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then he gets there and he immediately fires all of the prosecutors who are working on cases against January 6th defendants.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And then he says – he's reportedly said that we're President Trump's lawyers now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's also sent – just another letter that he sent that I think is really interesting was one to Elon Musk and Doge and said, hey, if you need anything from the Justice Department, we will protect you. We are here to serve you.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Another thing about this is the procedure. Really, if there's an issue with a nonprofit that is not following the rules that it needs for having tax-exempt status, then that issue is supposed to be brought and decided by the IRS.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if the IRS revokes tax-exempt status, then the prosecution gets referred to the DOJ.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So Ed Martin here is doing entirely the reverse. He's sending this vaguely threatening letter to Wikipedia from the DOJ.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And when really all of these issues are supposed to be decided by another part of the federal government, and that's the IRS.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Hmm. And maybe that's the reason he hasn't been confirmed by the United States Senate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You mentioned that there was some trouble there. What's it look like?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: On the one hand, you have Democratic opposition. You have Dick Durbin, who read all of the things that Ed Martin failed to disclose to the Senate, such as the fact that he has been on Russian state TV over hundreds of times, and he did not disclose that in his statements to the Senate?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On his podcast, Mr. Martin said, and I quote, You show me a Jewish American who feels good about the Democratic administration, and I'll show you someone who's not really Jewish.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: He called prosecutors who handled the January 6th cases despicable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Washington Post uncovered nearly 150 appearances by Mr. Martin on RT and Sputnik.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Here's what he said at the event. You're not a racist if you don't like Mexicans. I'm appalled that anyone would make a statement like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But more importantly, we're getting some cracks among Republicans in the sense that Tom Tillis has said he's a no vote for him. The January 6th language was too much.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Other Republicans have expressed concerns.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We know that the president's had a pretty successful track record with his appointments this time around.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: What has Ed Martin said or done that is so strong that it's turning off Republicans?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ed Martin has this relationship with this guy named Tim Hale Cusinelli. An alleged Nazi sympathizer who stormed the Capitol on January the 6th just got sentenced to four years in lockup.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: This is a picture of Timothy Hale Cusinelli, proudly sporting a Hitler mustache, in photos revealed by prosecutors in a court filing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's someone who's a convicted January 6th rioter and has also espoused anti-Semitic views.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: And Martin has appeared on multiple events with Hale. He's called him a great friend. They were on the podcast together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With a great friend of ours too, Tim Hale, the only thing you did that was really egregious to me was at one point on camera, you were sort of dancing in one of the areas as celebrating America.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: It wasn't your best dance moves.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in his response to the Senate, Ed Martin said that he is not very close with Tim Hale Cusinelli.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: In response to Chairman Grassley's question to Mr. Martin, he said, quote, I am not close with Mr. Hale Cusinelli and I otherwise do not have close, consistent interactions with him. End of quote.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That answer is contradicted by Mr. Martin's own words and actions.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Ed Martin has a lot of baggage and a bone to pick with Wikipedia. If all the baggage prevents him from being confirmed as U.S. attorney in D.C., does that mean that Wikipedia gets a free pass and doesn't have to move to Germany or whatever?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If Ed Martin isn't confirmed, then that position is temporarily appointed by the D.C. court, right?
--:-- Stephen Harrison: You would think that that person might not be as openly partisan as Trump's pick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We will see. But then Trump does get a second chance because he's in the executive branch and he gets to appoint his pick for the position.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So, I mean, it could go away with Ed Martin if Ed Martin doesn't get the role.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Heritage Foundation and Project 2025 are very against Wikipedia. They're against what they see as establishment institutions and sort of mainstream media perspectives.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: So I don't think that the right and I should say the far right's political attacks on Wikipedia will stop even if Ed Martin doesn't get this position.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Stephen Harrison writes about the website Wikipedia for other websites, but he also wrote about it in his debut novel, The Editors. You can find it wherever you find your books.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just as we were about to hit publish on this episode, we got the news that President Trump would be withdrawing Ed Martin's nomination as U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: He said, I just want to say Ed is unbelievable, and hopefully we can bring him in too, whether it's DOJ or whatever in some capacity. Unbelievable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We got the news just as we were sitting down to lunch to celebrate our executive producer, Miranda Kennedy's birthday.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Gabrielle Burbay shares the birthday with Miranda. She made our show today with help from Heidi Mwagdi, who is somehow also celebrating a birthday within a week here in the month of May.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Also, shout outs to Jolie Myers, whose birthday we missed.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: It's tourist season, folks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Amina Al-Sadi edited with footnoting by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Stephen Harrison: Andrea Kristen's daughter mixed the show along with Patrick Boyd.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This has been Today Explained. Thank you.
