--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Are women aware of the unique dynamics or challenges that men are facing that might actually affect their perception of desirability or disability?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Hey y'all, I'm John Glenn Hill and this is Explain It To Me, your hotline for the questions that matter most to you.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: We recently got a call from Rohan. Hello. He wants to know why people in their 20s and 30s are dating less.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone. And one of the challenges that I had sort of noticed is that men are kind of experiencing a harder time dating than women.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: He's asking because he's been having his own trouble on the dating scene.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: The state of dating, particularly for men, has been everywhere. Why are men in such crisis?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I mean, only 40% go to college. And women with degrees don't marry men who don't have degrees.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: 66% of young men between the ages of 18 and 29 are currently single, but only 34% of young women in the same age bracket are single.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Okay, Hadi, you were pretty excited about taking this question from Rohan. Why was that?
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Well, I mean, JQ, there are a few things.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: For starters, I'm a single guy in his mid-30s, and landing a date has been harder than ever.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: You swipe, you send roses, you sneak into the DMs. It's exhausting.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: You know, these dating apps really suck.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And on top of all of that, I've heard so often that women have decided to quit dating. They've given up on men.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And I guess who can blame them?
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: But our guy on this call, Rohan, I honestly had no idea if he was one of those dudes who's like uber worried about birth rates or if he was simply struggling to get a date.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And here's what he told me when I gave him a call.
--:-- Rohan: One thing that I think is not really kind of discussed enough is that there are a lot of terminology that is being thrown around.
--:-- Rohan: Like this kind of popular rhetoric of like become a high value individual.
--:-- Rohan: And so it's interesting now that like now there are metrics of kind of like what it means to be a high value or low value in terms of datability.
--:-- Rohan: If you're interested in someone, what is the way to pursue someone?
--:-- Rohan: How do I at least demonstrate a bit of interest in a way that is obviously consensual, but ideally reciprocal without having to feel like I'm either throwing a lot of money or I'm wasting my time?
--:-- Rohan: And I don't know, I was speaking with someone someone said, well, you know, everybody's tired because nobody wants to get played
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, and you piqued my interest I wanted to hear more about how it's going for Rohan
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone but some of those challenges are maybe nuanced or they're asymmetrical.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, I'm curious. Do you and your friends ever talk about this?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Like, what kind of conversations do you guys have with each other about this?
--:-- Rohan: Yes, we've talked a lot about this.
--:-- Rohan: You know, I have some great male friends. I also have a younger brother.
--:-- Rohan: And I think one of the biggest things that we found is that kind of some of the means or mediums for meeting people are now very inaccessible.
--:-- Rohan: So monetization of dating apps is not just a nuisance. It actually can be financially exclusive.
--:-- Rohan: For example, if you're trying to meet as many potential prospects, you need to keep paying for a subscription, right?
--:-- Rohan: So that is one thing that's frustrating.
--:-- Rohan: Another thing is that we live in a society that obviously has certain demographic patterns.
--:-- Rohan: And one of those patterns is that Asian men tend to be sort of emasculated.
--:-- Rohan: And I think black women tend to be unfortunately deemed as less desirable.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, I definitely get what you mean.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Like, you know, I've seen my fair share of colorism in dating, especially in my early 20s.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: It sounds like you use dating apps.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Do you mind telling me which ones you're on?
--:-- Rohan: Yes, I'm on Hinge and Bumble and Coffee Meets Bagel.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Ooh, okay.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I am well-versed in all three of these apps.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Okay, walk me through your approach.
--:-- Rohan: So, like, say you're on an app, you see a woman you want to match with.
--:-- Rohan: Like, what's the next step?
--:-- Rohan: So, you know, I'm interested in the profile, and I'll review it, and I'll swipe, and then there's a match.
--:-- Rohan: And what I've realized is that it's very easy to actually ghost.
--:-- Rohan: I remember I was chatting with someone. I really liked her profile and I was trying to kind of flirt digitally, try to build a little bit of banter.
--:-- Rohan: And so we had set a video date and I had been very explicit about ensuring she was comfortable with it.
--:-- Rohan: And then I actually extended a Google Calendar invite and she marked yes, she confirmed on the invite.
--:-- Rohan: So I was going in you know with a lot of confidence that this is going to happen and then when I joined she didn't show up
--:-- Rohan: Oh and so I had texted her saying hey look just want to check if you know I'm in this lobby and she said I'll be there in a few minutes and she didn't show up and I waited you know basically about an hour and then I realized that she was ghosting me
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I'm Sorry, Rohan.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: That's all right.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: That is like not okay and that sucks.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I appreciate that.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I think that's maybe kind of just a function of the way that dating is, that some of these dating mediums when they're off screen is that it's very easy to kind of escape accountability.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, it's like people forget, no, you're talking to another person on the end of that phone.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, and also like if there is a concern, if you don't share it, I can't address it.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Like either you show it or you tell me about it so that I can engage in that.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: But without being willing to open up without being willing to give that chance or have that faith it very difficult to actually demonstrate that
--:-- John Glenn Hill: So that kind of like the landscape of stuff online
--:-- John Glenn Hill: I curious do you ever try to approach women like IRL
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Ooh why not
--:-- Rohan: Quite candidly I kind of bought into I think a lot of the kind of contemporary rhetoric that it's not worth trying to make someone uncomfortable in a public space.
--:-- Rohan: Now, I recognize it's a public space, but I do think there is a little bit of discomfort as, you know, the fear of being kind of typecast is like, okay, that's a creepy or uncomfortable or weird, you know, approach or weird person.
--:-- Rohan: So I think there is a little bit of that.
--:-- Rohan: I don't see it or hear it happening so much myself.
--:-- Rohan: I would feel more comfortable with approaching and expressing a bit of interest publicly, IRL, if that were happening more visibly and audibly to me in public spaces.
--:-- Rohan: So it's understanding clarity like, okay, are you just chatting for the sake of chatting?
--:-- Rohan: Or is there something like there's an interest?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Yeah, I get what you're saying.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: It's this idea of like, OK, no one wants to be creepy. No one wants to be cringe.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: But people do want to know where they stand.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: But you kind of have to be forward in that way and risk the, oh, does someone think I'm creepy? Does someone think I'm cringe to get that clarity?
--:-- Rohan: Yes, absolutely.
--:-- Rohan: And I think, you know, this is something that maybe that there are training programs for or there's like practical experience.
--:-- Rohan: I remember like kind of reading these ads about dating coaches and how that's like a way for some folks to practice skills.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: If you could come away with like something after listening to the episode what would you want it to be like i have marching orders or i feel good about what i've learned
--:-- Rohan: You know i actually would not say it's so much guidance if i could have one request it would actually be you know people who can actually go to like role play exercises and really just showcase like this is what a positive expression of interest, one that is, say, you know, an IRL approach that is comfortable and not, you know, creepy, not weird, not uncomfortable.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Okay, so we're going to get Rohan some dating help.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: And look, I'm no man expert, so Hadi, our producer who you met earlier, he paid a visit to a men's relationship group at a bar in Austin to figure out how we can be Rohan's proverbial wingman.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: These guys are a bit older, and they had some sage words of advice.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: It's really easy to look at a group of people our age that are talking about the stuff we talk about and go, these guys are so broken.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: You've got to get kicked in the teeth a bunch of times before you realize, It's wasting.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Here's what it is.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And so I would encourage the young guys, find a men's group, even if it's a group of older guys, and go learn from them because they've all made mistakes that you don't need to make.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: You can learn from them.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Okay, let's go to Allie Volpe, senior reporter at Vox.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Okay, Allie, is Rohan an outlier or do his struggles with dating sound familiar to you?
--:-- Allie Volpe: I don't think he's an outlier at all.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Just anecdotally, like so many of the single people I know personally are having a hard time with dating.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like it just seems like nobody is having a fun time.
--:-- Allie Volpe: It's hard to find the girl that you really want to be with the rest of your life.
--:-- Allie Volpe: A lot of guys have very high standards for what they're looking for.
--:-- Allie Volpe: You're looking for something serious.
--:-- Allie Volpe: You're looking for a person that can match your energy.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And sometimes that means you're going to be single longer than you would like.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And like we're generally socializing less than like even 10, 20 years ago.
--:-- Allie Volpe: So it makes it hard to just meet people.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like playing on your phone when you should be listening to her.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But everything she's saying is just going in one ear and out the other because you'd rather be on your phone.
--:-- Allie Volpe: We're also living in a way that doesn't necessarily promote connection.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like we stare at our phones when we're on public transportation or while we're waiting in line for coffee.
--:-- Allie Volpe: We use self-checkout. We order food like via apps and touch screens.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like we wear AirPods in like any interstitial moment.
--:-- Allie Volpe: When we're in the car, you're on the phone.
--:-- Allie Volpe: When we're at the table, you're on the phone.
--:-- Allie Volpe: When we're in bed, you're on the phone.
--:-- Allie Volpe: So it just like kind of makes it hard to like naturally or quote unquote like naturally meet people.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But like for men in particular, this really seems to be a problem.
--:-- Allie Volpe: According to a 2022 Pew Research Center survey, 63% of men under 30 said they were single compared to only 34% of women in the same age bracket.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Single men were likely to be looking for love.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like half of them in that same survey said they reported looking for a committed relationship and or casual dates, while only 35% of single women said the same.
--:-- Allie Volpe: So, you know, there's a desire there and there's a lot of men looking for this, but they're having trouble.
--:-- Allie Volpe: We all know that TikTok where it's like, you know, if you found somebody on apps, you got the lash chopper out of Nam.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But it seems like guys specifically are having issues.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Why is that happening?
--:-- Allie Volpe: Yeah. I mean, to speak to the caller's point about like who are creating these rules.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like, what are the voices that are determining desirability or datability?
--:-- Allie Volpe: Should we be really critiquing or questioning what constitutes desirability or datability
--:-- Allie Volpe: I doing a follow story about dating standards and expectations specifically
--:-- Allie Volpe: And you know like going back to the 70s 80s you know if you would poll women about like what they were looking for in men they're often looking for these like provider type qualities of they're high earner, they're going to protect, they're going to support.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And men just as consistently are like, I just want somebody hot.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Well, there's a girl at school. She hot? And she's super smart. Hot? Funny and cool. Hot? Yes, she's hot. Super hot. Nice.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And these expectations have persisted like from the 80s until, you know, recently.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like these things have not really changed very much.
--:-- Allie Volpe: A recent YouGov poll found that men prioritize sex, romance, and physical attraction more than women, while women emphasize empathy, monogamy, and independence.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But it sounds like the standards have also changed.
--:-- Allie Volpe: What's changed and why have they changed?
--:-- Allie Volpe: This is, I think, a good consequence of the Me Too movement, I think, is that there's been like a wider discussion about like what behavior women would consider predatory or inappropriate.
--:-- Allie Volpe: So I think there's more of an understanding that like you shouldn't be creepy and harass women, which is great.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like that is wonderful.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And Richard Reeves, the expert I talked to, he's the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And he wrote a book also called Of Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why It Matters and What to Do About It.
--:-- Allie Volpe: He told me that the men that he works with like generally understand this.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like, don't be a creep.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But that's getting in the way of them dating, you know?
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like, they're so in their heads about it.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like, they don't want to come off as, like, a quote-unquote bad guy, but they're just sort of opting out of it altogether.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Well, I think a lot of young women, actually, one of the things they feel about a lot of young men is that they're a bit passive.
--:-- Allie Volpe: It's almost like a lot of those men almost don't feel they have permission to be assertive.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Something else I've been thinking about a lot is more people are going to therapy, that is a good thing.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But out of that has come like the emergence of therapy speak, where people are misusing terms that are vaguely like pop psychology that like not even a therapist would use.
--:-- Allie Volpe: You know, if anyone has what you deem like a quote unquote red flag, it's a no-go.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And so people are writing people off based on some of these red flags.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But I think everybody is going to have something that might give you the quote unquote ick or, you know, might not be your dream standard and we are more likely to write them off immediately because of that.
--:-- Allie Volpe: You gotta meet people in person.
--:-- Allie Volpe: I think like again like apps are fine but I think it's a tool you gotta go to places where there are people and you're doing an activity that like you like so like you shouldn't go to like run club if you hate running and expect to meet somebody you know
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like maybe you do like a wine tasting club or like you go to, you take some pottery classes or comedy classes, whatever.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Go somewhere where there's going to be people that like you can see week after week.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like if you're seeing them week after week after week, like they kind of get a sense of who you are.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And I think we just like can't assume the worst of people.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like I feel like trust is really low right now.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Again, another young male reader reached out to me like he's 20, 21 and he's starting to date.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And he just feels like, like, how do I get people to trust me?
--:-- Allie Volpe: How do I get how do I trust other people?
--:-- Allie Volpe: And I get it. It's really, really hard.
--:-- Allie Volpe: But I think we have to just like assume that people want what we want.
--:-- Allie Volpe: Like we just have to have a little bit of like humanity and flexibility for people.
--:-- Allie Volpe: And like to understand, like, yes, if I'm an inherently like valued but imperfect person, so is this other person.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Explain it to me. We'll be back in a minute.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: OK, be cool. Be yourself. It's just a date.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: This is Explain It To Me. I'm John Glyn Hill.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: And this is producer Hadi Mawagdi.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Hi again.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Okay, Hadi. Our caller Rohan told us he's not necessarily looking for dating advice, but he does want support.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Like a role-playing public service-y kind of thing to help him learn how to approach women in real life and online.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Were you able to find that for him?
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Well, I did not find exactly what Rohan was looking for.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: I'm not even sure that it exists.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: But as I took this journey to figure out why young men are bad at dating, I learned that men in their 20s and 30s are actually struggling with all of their relationships.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: Friendships, familial, and definitely romantic.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: But eventually I came across a men's organization called Everyman.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: A for-profit company that brings men together to talk about their feelings.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And after that, I found a nonprofit group called The Mankind Project.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: They put on these extensive weekend events with physical and psychological elements, all focused on helping men discover who they want to be in the world.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And they also host men's groups.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: And after a bit of digging, I came up with a guy who does similar work in the city I live in, Austin, Texas.
--:-- Hadi Mawagdi: He calls himself The Happy Man Coach, and his name is Charlie McKeever.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Call me a dating coach, but I would call myself a confidence coach.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And that's important for dating. It's important for relationships and it's important for life.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: So I help men own themselves to get to know who they are and to reclaim themselves in their life.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: So Charlie works one-on-one with men.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: He organizes retreats as well.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And this year he's taking some men to Spain.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: But he also hosts weekly meetups.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And he invited me to one at a bar called The Water Tank.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: It was a busy evening at the bar.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: There was a game of trivia happening.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Charlie had found a tucked away spot at the water tank, and honestly, I was pretty blown away by how enlightened my fellow middle-aged dudes are.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Take Rob, for example.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Throughout the night, he offered up bits and pieces of his personal story.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Divorce, loneliness, that sort of stuff.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And then he'd bring up research that says men should learn to be vulnerable with one another.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And once you decide to do that it very empowering to see that other guys are willing to open up as well
--:-- Charlie McKeever: You know it not a big cry fest all the time but it just saying man I see you and I hear you
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And once you feel that way it just a really settled grounded place to be
--:-- Charlie McKeever: They were also speculating on why so many young men are struggling right now.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: This one guy, Corey, for example.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: He looked a little bit like a middle school football coach I had one time, stocky, you know, wearing a University of Texas polo and baseball cap while also sipping on a cocktail.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Anyways, Corey, he thinks the loss of organized religion means men don't know where to get their relationships modeled for them.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: They're struggling because, you know, they're learning from TV or they're learning from a video game, but they're not learning from mom and dad.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: They're not learning from seeing relationships actually modeled.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: They don't have that big brother that's taking them out and going, oh, here's what you do next. Here's this.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Because big brother's in the room playing video games and eating pizza just like they are.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Okay, let's go to Charlie, who runs the group.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: In general, men are very feeling.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: I'm a big fan of Alison Armstrong's research.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And in it, she says that a man doesn't want to do something that he doesn't think he has a high probability of success for.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: So, at some point, he has to learn that he needs to be himself and be who enjoys being in his life and then do things from that place, right?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Doing it as a happy, whole, contented person.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And then he'll have the experiences that he has in life.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: He'll see things from a perspective of abundance and not from a place of scarcity and lack, which is where we come from when we think that we need somebody.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We need a person's approval.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We need their acceptance.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We need that job, that promotion, that bank account, that house in order to be okay.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And if we can only be okay if, then we're really in a very precarious place.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: This is very good advice, but I understand how it can elicit eye rolls from men who are struggling with dating you know I've heard my fair share of like oh you need to work out yourself love comes with in blah blah blah blah and I've like I've been listen I've been in the trenches I have been on those apps it is rough out here like what do you say to men who are like okay that's fine but like yeah I'm still not getting dates I still haven't found my person like okay I love me now what that's legit right that's totally legit and there would have been a time that I would have eye-rolled too.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: I'd have been like, it doesn't come down to woo-woo. It doesn't come down to magic, right?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: There's no secret.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: It's really very logical that when I'm dependent on something outside of me, then I'm going to feel very powerless.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And that's just It's not a great place to be.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: It's not a great place to live.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: So now, the thing that I also hear from men a lot is I hear the word intimacy. Oh, okay. Surprise! They talk about intimacy. They talk about connection.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: The thing that we don't know, that we don't realize, right, is that intimacy is not just sex, right?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: But at the end of the day, what we really want, and this is the part that he's kind of confused about, is that we really want to be seen.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We really want to be heard.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We really want to be understood, right?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And the interesting thing about intimacy and being seen and being heard, being understood is that if we're in this place where we're protecting ourself, where we're trying to get from somebody the thing that we think that we don't have, then we actually subvert that connection.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Charlie, we invited you on the show because, you know, we got a call from one of our listeners, Rohan, and he is struggling to meet women.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: He says he doesn't usually approach women in public.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Yeah. So if we believe that it's not okay to be us, that it's not okay to bother somebody, not okay to approach somebody, then what we're going to do is we're going to disengage, right?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We're going to disconnect.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We're going to avoid.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Because if the idea of walking up to somebody and talking to them is painful, then we're going to avoid it.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: We're not going to want to engage in that.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And I wonder how do you get past, you know, the quote unquote cringe of it all?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: I think, you know, I don't know if it's the Internet. I don't know what it is about the time we're in, but it's like any sense of earnestness is considered embarrassing.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: But it takes earnestness to make the kind of connections you're talking about.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: How do you get past that?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Again, this comes back to that self-acceptance.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: I used to go into the barber shop and I would tell the barber, make me look like Brad Pitt.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And they would be like, I'll do my best. Good luck with that.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: And I like Brad Pitt's vibe, but you know what?
--:-- Charlie McKeever: He's doing a really good job of being Brad Pitt.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Who I need to be is me, I need to fully own and be me, the person that I really want to become interested in first.
--:-- Charlie McKeever: Not only, but first, is myself.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Today's show was about men, but in a couple weeks, we'll be talking about women and their dating lives.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Specifically, Gen X women and how they're navigating sex.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Has your sex life changed through the decades?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Anything surprise you?
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545 or send a voice memo to askvox at vox.com.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: This episode was produced by Hadi Mawagdi.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: It was fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, edited by Miranda Kennedy, with mixing by Patrick Boyd.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Our supervising producer is Carla Javier, and I'm John Gwynn Hill.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Talk to you next week.
--:-- John Glenn Hill: Bye.
