--:-- [Sound of a news theme]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Harvard University, birthplace of napalm, setting of Legally Blonde, currently fighting back against the president in his war on higher education. What, like it's hard?
--:-- Andrew Jack: You've surely heard about Harvard's showdown with President Trump. He also wants to see Harvard apologize, and Harvard should apologize.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just like you've probably heard about the president's wins over at Columbia. But on the far other side of the spectrum, we've got at least 10 Florida State Universities. These schools aren't fighting the president. They're going in the complete opposite direction. They're raising their hands up and waving them at ICE, saying, Come on in. Here's our roster of students. See anything you don't like? Question. Detain. Go to town.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On Today Explained, we're going to take a look at the two extremes in this fight, fight, fight at American universities.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My name is Andrew Jack. I'm the global education editor at the Financial Times based in New York.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Did you go to Harvard, Andrew?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I did have a year on a fellowship at Harvard many years ago, yes.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Oh, you did? So does this story hit home for you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I mean, I think certainly in the sense of some degree of skin in the game, I guess.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Yeah. Tell us what is going on with your quasi-alma mater right now.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Well, Harvard, of course, has been in the sights of the Republicans and Donald Trump for many months. Like other leading universities, Harvard for a long time was very quiet in public. It wouldn't speak out. It wouldn't give interviews. It was going about its business.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And then in recent weeks and months, it's taken a number of moves that some interpreted as attempts to suggest it was responding to the criticisms of the Trump administration, but also to try and push back any more aggressive enforcement actions.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So it got rid of some senior leadership at its Middle Eastern Studies Center. It's got underway, though we're yet to see it, a detailed report on anti-Semitism on campus and a number of other initiatives.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But really, after the demands escalated from the Trump administration at the end of last week, it switched and decided that it wouldn't accept the conditions that were sought from the government and that instead it would defend academic identity and free speech.
--:-- Andrew Jack: The Trump administration had something like 10 demands for Harvard, including the elimination of DEI programs and the restriction of acceptance of international students who are, and I'm quoting here, hostile to American values and institutions.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Harvard's response? A flat no. Which is interesting, right? Because I think in this moment this week, a lot of people are saying Harvard stood up to Trump.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But what you're saying is this was a process in which they initially were placating Trump. So do we know where this break came from?
--:-- Andrew Jack: Did Trump and company push too hard? We don't know the full story, but clearly this is an evolving situation where also presumably the Trump administration officials are adapting in response to a whole series of other actions they've taken both to the higher education sector across the board and to now something like seven of the most elite universities.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And I suspect that the apparent willingness by Colombia, in particular, to cede to the demands of the administration gave them a sense of increased empowerment. And so they then stepped up their ask to Harvard.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Then last week, the American Association of University Professors and network-representing professors across the country themselves took legal action against the administration, if you like, on behalf of Harvard.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So you were getting those pressures from within and pressures from without and a lot of concern by all those engaged with higher education about the attacks from the Trump administration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, let's leave Cambridge for a second and talk about what's transpired at other East Coast elite universities, Ivy League or otherwise.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's start with Columbia because I think that's maybe the most important case. An Ivy League school is apparently ceding now to President Trump's demands to do more to combat anti-Semitism on campus.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The school leaders agreed to a campus mask ban, will empower 36 campus officers to have arrest powers, and will appoint a senior vice provost to oversee the Middle East Studies Department.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Remind us what exactly happened there and how Colombia conceded to this administration.
--:-- Andrew Jack: You'd have to go back really to October 23 and student protests. The chorus of drum beats and chanting could be heard for blocks as pro- It happened in the middle of the night. Protesters smashed windows and stormed the building.
--:-- Andrew Jack: They barricaded- Of course, Colombia in the heart of New York. Lots of TV crews, lots of politicians marching through. So everybody trying to turn it into a test case.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And it got very much drawn into the debates during the presidential election. The person that heads up Columbia University was a great school It been you know badly damaged I think reputationally
--:-- Andrew Jack: And then in the last few weeks we seen a series of targeted attacks now on seven of the more elite universities including Columbia and Harvard, but also Cornell and Princeton and Brown, for example, where they've been told that grants have been frozen and they're bracing for further action by the administration, but still waiting somewhat for communications.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And as I said, it looks as though Colombia was the test case. It was one that no doubt the Trump administration considered would be the easiest to go after.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And indeed, it's now had two presidents resign within the last few months.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you have, Andrew, any idea what the size of Colombia's endowment is?
--:-- Andrew Jack: Yes, Colombia's endowment is around about $14, $15 billion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: $14, $15 billion. So I think the average person out there might struggle to understand why an elite university with $15 billion in an endowment, and who knows what in real estate holdings, would have to cave so gravely to the Trump administration, to have the Trump administration be making administrative decisions at their university.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Can you help people understand what may have gone into a decision like that?
--:-- Andrew Jack: Well, I mean, the first thing to say, you often hear the pushback from even the very well endowed universities is that, you know, those endowments are a long-term investment in their future operations that, of course, much of that money gets reinvested for the longer term, but the surplus...
--:-- Andrew Jack: I always hear that, but I don't understand it because this seems like the break-in case of emergency moment. Like, if not this, then what?
--:-- Andrew Jack: Well, and I think, yes. So I think that there's a few things to say here. The first is that certainly much of the surplus income that's generated by endowments is actually used for financial aid.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But the second thing is the Ivies argue that, you know, much of the revenue that they generate from their endowment, that surplus is actually used to provide discounted or even free tuition for those that are talented but come from lower income backgrounds.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So, simply to blow out the endowments is, one, difficult because a lot of those reserves that go into endowments are earmarked by the people who give them, the donors, for specific causes.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But the pressure that we're seeing, the funding withdrawals, the $2.2 billion now at Harvard, for example, that the government says it will withdraw from the university, is actually, well, it's a little bit unclear, but it primarily seems to come from federal grants for research.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So this is not, you know, just a subsidy to a rich university to perpetuate their endowment. It's actually money that's very specifically allocated for projects for research for the future of society.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But can, let's say, Harvard in that case, with, I believe, a 50 billion endowment, I think the biggest of any research university in the world, Can they dip into that gargantuan sum of money to fill that void in these, you know, two, three, four, 50 years of the Trump administration?
--:-- Andrew Jack: Yes. And I think even at Columbia and a number of the other universities that have been targeted, frankly, despite the complexities we were just discussing, those should provide resources to help them during rainy days.
--:-- Andrew Jack: There was a big debate around this after the financial crisis in 2008. There were discussions around it during COVID, of course, when students had to go online and classes were cancelled and so on.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And I think this is absolutely as if not more of an existential moment when, frankly, taking some of that endowment money to cover the additional risks of some loss of federal funding and indeed the litigation and uncertainty around it and potentially even some loss of donor funding or students is a cause that would totally justify them dipping into their endowment, but also looking at other sources of income.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And incidentally, both Harvard and several of the other universities have also, in recent weeks, been issuing bonds. So they're going to the bond markets to raise money, and that's cash.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So that does give them additional reserves to help support or mitigate or prepare to challenge some of this onslaught that they're facing at the moment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which is still funny to me, I guess, because I still can't wrap my head around not dipping into the $50 billion and instead selling bonds. They're so nervous to use their endowments.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Well, of course, don't forget that in the last few weeks, President Trump has decided to wage war on the world with his tariffs. And that's caused, as you all have seen, the stock markets and the bond markets to tank or to bounce around in a very uncertain way.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So if you're to have a fire sale of your assets, which what these endowments are invested in, it also perhaps wouldn't be the right moment to do so.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So if you can borrow relatively cheaply with a reputation that's stood out there of a great institution like Harvard, get some money in order to prepare for all sorts of uncertainties and short-term demands on cash, that's probably a rational approach to take.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, who am I to question Harvard's tactics?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now that Harvard is saddling up for a fight with this administration, now that they are inspiring other schools to maybe, you know, take their lead, what can the Trump administration do in response to make this uncomfortable for them?
--:-- Andrew Jack: So to be clear, the first response from Harvard has not yet been legal action. It's not yet launched, as far as we know, a lawsuit, but it has written very robust letters framed in legal language by some pretty top law firms.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So it's very clear they're preparing. They've got a robust attempt to respond to the Trump administration.
--:-- Andrew Jack: But even when that set of statements came out that they wouldn't concede, you already saw very quickly the response from the Trump administration saying, we are immediately freezing $2.2 billion worth of assets.
--:-- Andrew Jack: So that was point one.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Secondly, we've heard further pushback and indeed on Truth Social, Donald Trump hinted at some other potential levers and pressure points, including reviewing the tax exempt, the charitable status of Harvard.
--:-- Andrew Jack: And this is something that universities have been thinking about or concerned about for a while. Again, obviously, which would have a big financial cost were they to lose that status.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A whole series of statements of potential threats of other levers both financial and legal that we can expect to see in the weeks ahead Andrew Jack.
--:-- Andrew Jack: Never Jack Andrew. Read his work at FT.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We at Today Explained are off to ICU when we return.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Harvard, Columbia, sure. But what about everyone else? How's this playing out at state schools in, say, Florida?
--:-- Josh Moody: The answer is very differently.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Josh Moody's been writing about Sunshine State schools for inside higher ed schools.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've been hearing less about with all the attention on the Ivy League.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've probably not heard of some of them because it's the Florida State University system, which has 12 members ranging from large schools with tens of thousands of students to New College of Florida, which has about 800 students.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At least 10 of those institutions have signed agreements with ICE, which essentially would give their police department immigration enforcement powers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what's going on here with the Florida State Schools? Is this a rebrand to like ICEU? What are they doing here?
--:-- Josh Moody: So Governor Ron DeSantis has taken a pretty hard line on immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And his directive was for law enforcement agencies to enter into memorandums of agreement with ICE to basically gain immigration enforcement powers, which he argues will make Florida's community safer.
--:-- Josh Moody: This legislation will require state and locals to assist the administration in Washington with reestablishing the rule of law, with removing illegal aliens from our communities and from protecting public safety.
--:-- Josh Moody: Basically, these agreements, as one expert explained to me, are, he called them force multipliers for ICE.
--:-- Josh Moody: So if you wanted to have more immigration enforcement, you would sign an agreement with ICE to delegate that power locally.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is just a way for Florida to expand its immigration enforcement capabilities.
--:-- Josh Moody: You know, the governor, as I mentioned before, has taken a hard line on immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You are going to see more effective interior enforcement enforcement when you have the state and local and the federal government on the same page.
--:-- Josh Moody: He ran for president previously. I wouldn't be surprised if he does so again.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that could be part of his long term strategy looking ahead.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in this way, he's sort of outflanking Trump on immigration.
--:-- Josh Moody: And this is just a fun question I love to ask while we're talking about this stuff. Where did Ron DeSantis go to school again? Yale, right? Or was it Harvard?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was both! Okay.
--:-- Josh Moody: Anyway, have any students been detained or deported yet at these Florida state schools like we've seen at, say, Columbia?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Eighteen students at Florida International University and eight students at the University of Florida have had their visas revoked.
--:-- Josh Moody: We have to make sure we have enough capacity and enough seats for our in-state legal Florida residents.
--:-- Josh Moody: I think it's a betrayal to most of the student body here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what does that mean? Were they deported?
--:-- Josh Moody: They would have to leave the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They would have to leave the country.
--:-- Josh Moody: It doesn't necessarily mean that ICE is going to come scoop them up in a van and facilitate that process, but they would essentially have to begin the process of leaving the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And do we know what specifically these students have had their visas revoked for?
--:-- Josh Moody: We do not but that is not uncommon That has been the case across the U
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Some students have been targeted for their speech.
--:-- Josh Moody: You look at the situation at Tufts and Colombia, where students were active in pro-Palestinian protest, and the Trump administration has claimed they're anti-Semitic and pro-Hamas.
--:-- Josh Moody: But has not provided any evidence that they have done anything illegal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in some cases, they're being targeted for their speech.
--:-- Josh Moody: In other cases, they've had visas revoked for crimes committed years ago.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And these institutions themselves have often been given no explanation when student statuses were changed.
--:-- Josh Moody: And sometimes they've discovered it by looking in their own systems and seeing that those statuses had been revoked.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't know how many international students have been caught up in this, but one of my fellow reporters at Inside Higher Ed is keeping a database.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we have counted at least 1,200 students at 180 colleges who have lost visas. 1,200 students.
--:-- Josh Moody: Does that mean there are other schools, university systems around the country that are signing these kinds of agreements with ICE that are cooperating with ICE at this level?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Florida institutions are the only ones to have signed agreements with ICE.
--:-- Josh Moody: The professors that I spoke with, the legal experts for this piece, believe this is unprecedented.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Neither were aware of another university ever signing into what is known as a 287G agreement with ICE.
--:-- Josh Moody: It's sort of a new frontier in immigration enforcement on college campuses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, are students on the campuses of these universities upset to hear that they're signing into agreements with ICE?
--:-- Josh Moody: Yes, there were protests at Florida International University today, which had a board meeting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, FIU, our university, is collaborating with ICE.
--:-- Josh Moody: The students that I hear from are often upset about what is happening in the state, not just around immigration, but what has been a broader effort by Florida Republicans to really control all aspects of the university, whether that is hiring politicians, lawmakers into the presidencies of these universities, or overhauling general education requirements to minimize certain disciplines like sociology that Florida state officials have deemed liberal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have worked hard to get woke out of our institutions of higher education and to make sure they're focused on the classical mission of what a university should be.
--:-- Josh Moody: How do you feel what's going on at ICU down in Florida fits into this other fight that we're seeing in the Northeast with Trump going to war with the elite universities?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In Florida, this is being done by the state dictating to these universities, you need to do this to basically carry out state goals around immigration enforcement.
--:-- Josh Moody: Whereas the other examples at places like Harvard and Columbia, this is the Trump administration more or less trying to bring higher education to heel, starting by making an example of some of the most visible universities where there have been some of the most visible pro-Palestinian campus protests over the last year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Free, free, free Palestine! Free, free Palestine!
--:-- Josh Moody: People are really freaked out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Professors are worried about academic freedom, but also nationally, people are worried too, because they see Harvard and they see Columbia being at the forefront of this fight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And even though they are not at all representative of higher education broadly, these are very visible universities, and everyone pays attention to these universities.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if they crumble, it seems only likely that your local institution is going to crumble when faced with the same threats.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I guess on the show today, we've been talking about these two extremes in this culture war right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, on one, the oldest and most prestigious university in the country, Harvard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then over here, we've got this pocket of Florida state schools that are just like throwing up their hands and complying with ICE.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But where does that leave in your estimation, like everyone in between those two extremes?
--:-- Josh Moody: Sure. A lot of that comes down to public or private control.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you are a public university in a dark red state, I would think you should expect that this is coming.
--:-- Josh Moody: If you are at a public university in Texas, I think you might not be that far behind Florida in terms of an action like this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's what I'm hearing from experts, too.
--:-- Josh Moody: They tell me that they expect the same.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you're in a blue state, you are a little bit more isolated if you're a public institution there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Private institutions in both will have a lot more latitude.
--:-- Josh Moody: But I don't like to speculate, but I think it is entirely possible that the Trump administration looks at something like this and says, why don't we do this nationwide?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What a time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Absolutely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Josh Moody, though he was quite pleasant when we spoke to him, InsideHigherEd.com
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Miles Bryan and Devin Schwartz made the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Miranda Kennedy edited it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrea Christensdottir and Patrick Boyd mixed it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram from This Is Today Explained. Thank you.
