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--:-- Steve Inskeep: Welcome to Up First. I'm Steve Inskeep.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And I'm Michelle Martin.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: Polling on President Trump's immigration policy shows a divided country. Support for deportation changes depending on exactly who is being deported and how the government does it.
--:-- Michelle Martin: What are the numbers?
--:-- Steve Inskeep: We're going to explore that with Michelle Martin. I'm Steve Inskeep with Michelle Martin, and this is Up First from NPR News.
--:-- Michelle Martin: The Trump administration plans to get rid of limits on greenhouse gases emitted from power plants. The EPA says this step will help fulfill a promise to unleash American energy.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: Some disagree. This action would be pretty laughable if the stakes weren't so high.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So what are those stakes?
--:-- Steve Inskeep: And the Republican megabill proposes putting colleges on the hook for their students' loans. Will the math add up?
--:-- Michelle Martin: Stay with us. We'll give you the news you need to start your day.
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--:-- Steve Inskeep: President Trump won a second term in part because of what he had to say about immigration. Now the country is seeing exactly how the administration is following through.
--:-- Michelle Martin: The president's actions have provoked a lot of protest, as we've been hearing all week, and also considerable support.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: And we're going to start with the voices of Americans who generally support the president.
--:-- Stefano Forte: I'm Stefano Forte, president of the New York Young Republican Club. On immigration, we need to take a pause and then later on down the line, we can decide if we want to open the United States up. But for right now, the United States is full.
--:-- George Pita: I'm George Pita, an independent from Miami. I voted for Trump and I'm torn down the middle. It's rough because I'm Hispanic myself and I see my people being treated like this. I'm in agreement with having to deport massively because a lot of illegals did come through. I just don't like the way it's being done.
--:-- Julie Cantwell: I'm Julie Cantwell, a Republican running for state representative in Rhineyville, Kentucky. They want to deport the violent criminals. But a lot of people also feel that as strong Republicans that we don't want to rip families apart because we do believe in family values.
--:-- Catherine Katari: I'm Catherine Katari, a longtime Republican voter in Brooklyn. I would welcome the Marines to my city. I say, oorah, simplify, oorah, lead the National Guard, sit them down on the sidelines and bring the Marine Corps in. My son-in-law has a business in Soho. We work hard for everything. And you're breaking my window? Hell no.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So for more on public opinion about immigration and politics, we're going to turn to NPR senior political editor and correspondent, Domenico Montanaro.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Good morning, Michelle.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So where does the polling stand on this and how has it changed over time?
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Whether or not people think immigration should increase or decrease, you know, tends to depend on the number of immigrants who cross the border illegally.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Gallup has been polling for decades about this sentiment and found last year, for example, that in its latest survey with this question in it, that 55% of people wanted immigration to decrease. That's the highest it's been since 2001.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: And that was a very different political moment just after 9-11. But it was also the last time encounters at the southern border were as high as they were in the last couple of years.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: So President Trump has certainly made immigration a key part of his message. I mean, that's, you know, since his first run for the presidency.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: But how do people view how he is handling it now? Well, we've gotten some conflicting messages from poll respondents on this across various surveys.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: For example, just this week, a CBS poll found 54% approved of his deportation policies. But just yesterday, a Quinnipiac poll showed 56% disapprove.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: What that tells us for people who watch politics closely is that there's volatility in the numbers. And that means a certain percentage of people are open to being swayed.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: And that's when circumstances and political messaging here are really important.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: OK, what kinds of circumstances? Well, Trump certainly is at risk of going too far.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Just because overall people say that they're in favor of deporting those without permanent legal status. There's a difference between the kinds of hardened criminals that the administration said it would focus on and those who are hardworking members of communities and construction or restaurants or elsewhere.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: We've seen some pushback from within the president's own party, even warning that it should be cautious in how far they go.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: But cultural hardliners in the White House like Stephen Miller disagree. They have the president's ear and they're going to focus on any violence as a result of the protests and try and make that the focus.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: And what about how the Democrats talk about this? What are you hearing about how they should be responding?
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Well, Democrats had really been having trouble finding their sea legs in talking about immigration. Trump focused on immigration during the campaign. Democrats lost.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: And some of them have shied away from making a strong case in favor of immigration. But in this moment, there seems to be some early signs of coalescing about how Democrats should talk about this.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Joel Payne's a Democratic strategist. He says that he's starting to see some Democrats talk about it in a way that he thinks is politically palatable.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: The American people, I think, want a Democratic party that understands the value of managing the border, but also does not abandon the value of supporting and uplifting immigrant communities.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: Shoycott Chakrabarty is a former chief of staff to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. He's running for Congress in San Francisco against former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: He thinks in general that Democrats have to fight harder on most things, but on immigration, he said he thinks that the party and people like California Governor Gavin Newsom are striking the right tone.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: I don't think anybody in the country sees a mom getting picked up from a school pickup line by masked agents in unmarked vans and think, ah, yeah, that's what I voted for. That's what I want. That's humane.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: I don't think that matters if you're progressive, moderate or Republican. I think that's just basic common sense about where want the country to be.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: You know, with the deportation policy shift toward workplaces, the narrative from Republicans is changing from one about border security to targeting criminals, which pulls very well to something very different.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: And the further Trump goes, Democrats feel like the easier it is for them to have a message and appear to be united on this.
--:-- Michelle Martin: That is NPR's Domenico Montanaro. Domenico, thank you.
--:-- Domenico Montanaro: You're welcome.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: The Trump administration plans to repeal limits on greenhouse gas pollution from the country's fossil fuel power plants.
--:-- Michelle Martin: These are coal and gas generators, and they are the second largest source of climate-heating greenhouse gases behind transportation.
--:-- Jeff Brady: I'm Jeff Brady from NPR's Climate Desk. Good morning, Michelle.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So what is the Trump administration proposing?
--:-- Jeff Brady: They are removing any responsibility that fossil fuel power plants have under current rules to help with reigning in climate change.
--:-- Jeff Brady: If this rule is finalized there will be no limits on greenhouse gases for existing coal power plants and new gas ones.
--:-- Jeff Brady: And this is all part of President Trump's effort to move away from the climate policies of the Biden administration and refocus on exploiting more domestic fossil fuels.
--:-- Jeff Brady: Here's Environmental Protection Agency Administrator Lee Zeldin at yesterday's announcement.
--:-- Lee Zeldin: Rest assured, President Trump is the biggest supporter of clean, beautiful coal. We will use coal for power generation, to mine for critical minerals, and to export to our allies.
--:-- Jeff Brady: Today, we are taking an important step towards putting America back on track.
--:-- Jeff Brady: To justify lifting these limits on climate pollution, the EPA argues that U.S. power plants are a small and declining part of global greenhouse gas emissions, around 3%.
--:-- Jeff Brady: So the agency argues they're no longer a significant contributor to the problem. But, you know, I recently looked at one analysis that showed if U.S. power plants were a country, they'd be the sixth largest contributor to global climate change or global climate pollution.
--:-- Jeff Brady: I see it.
--:-- Meredith Hankins: I'm Meredith Hankins, an attorney with the Natural Resources Defense Council. This action would be pretty laughable if the stakes weren't so high.
--:-- Meredith Hankins: This administration is actually trying to argue that the largest industrial source of carbon pollution is somehow insignificant to the problem of climate change.
--:-- Jeff Brady: Hengins and others say the Trump administration is propping up the coal industry at a time when Americans are experiencing the effects of a hotter planet, you know, more intense storms, flooding, heat waves, and wildfires.
--:-- Jeff Brady: Coal and gas companies, though, you know, they're big fans of the Trump administration's energy policies, including this one.
--:-- Jeff Brady: And like the president, they see opportunity in tapping more of the country's fossil fuel reserves.
--:-- Jeff Brady: And so where does this leave the U.S. in the global fight against climate change?
--:-- Jeff Brady: These power plant rules have gone through a couple of different evolutions. They started with President Barack Obama's Clean Power Plan back in 2015.
--:-- Jeff Brady: His administration took that proposal to the United Nations climate meeting in Paris that year to show that the U.S. was serious about addressing greenhouse gas pollution and to encourage other countries to sign the landmark Paris Climate Agreement, which, of course, they did.
--:-- Jeff Brady: In that agreement, countries laid out how they're going to reduce their climate pollution to avoid the worst effects of a hotter planet.
--:-- Jeff Brady: And Trump is once again removing the U.S. from the Paris Agreement. Repealing these limits on power plants is part of that withdrawal from the global fight against climate change.
--:-- Jeff Brady: So what happens next with these power plant rules that the EPA has proposed?
--:-- Jeff Brady: There's going to be a comment period, maybe a rule by the end of the year.
--:-- Jeff Brady: And shortly after that, I suspect they're going to be challenged in court.
--:-- Michelle Martin: That is NPR's Jeff Brady. Jeff, thank you.
--:-- Jeff Brady: Thank you.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: Tucked inside House Republicans' megabill is a bold idea to hold colleges accountable for student loans.
--:-- Michelle Martin: The concept is called risk sharing. The college has to share the risk.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: The proposal would order colleges to assume some financial responsibility for the debt that their students do not pay off.
--:-- Corey Turner: I'm Corey Turner, NPR education correspondent. Good morning, Michelle.
--:-- Michelle Martin: So how exactly do House Republicans want to hold colleges accountable here?
--:-- Corey Turner: Well, the proposal would divide up a school's student loan borrowers by program. So imagine separating English majors from biology or computer science majors, and then they'd calculate for each program in a given year how much borrowers were supposed to pay toward their federal student loans but didn't.
--:-- Corey Turner: And after some more pretty complicated math, colleges would then have to reimburse the federal government for a share of that unpaid student loan debt.
--:-- Corey Turner: And Michelle, there's one extra twist here which is that these penalties would then be recycled into bonuses to reward the schools that give low students the biggest bang for their buck.
--:-- Corey Turner: So, Corey, you talk to sort of experts who look at things like college financing all the time. What are they saying about this?
--:-- Corey Turner: Yeah, so there is pretty broad consensus around the idea that we need some kind of accountability for colleges.
--:-- Corey Turner: But I heard several really key worries about this plan.
--:-- Corey Turner: One of them is that it would require a ton of data. And the education department, which would have to collect it, has half the staff that it had before President Trump took office.
--:-- Corey Turner: There's another problem I heard with the math behind these school penalties.
--:-- Corey Turner: Dominique Baker at the University of Delaware says the math has a hole in it. The amount that would get charged for this would not include loan balances that were in default, which is very odd.
--:-- Corey Turner: That's right. The plan to punish schools for burying students in debt would exclude loans once they go into default.
--:-- Corey Turner: Multiple experts told me, Michelle, this was likely done out of fear that including defaults would basically make the penalties too painful for some schools.
--:-- Corey Turner: So do we know which colleges would be hardest hit by these changes?
--:-- Corey Turner: Yeah, we have some idea. The conservative-leaning American Enterprise Institute has been crunching the numbers and estimates.
--:-- Corey Turner: The schools on the hook for some of the biggest penalties would mostly fall into two categories. You've got the for-profit college chains like Strayer University and University of Phoenix, and then big private non-profit schools, including the University of Southern California or USC, not because of their undergraduate debt, but because of their popular high-priced grad programs.
--:-- Corey Turner: So before we let you go, what are the chances of this plan getting through Congress?
--:-- Corey Turner: Well, I mean, it needs a simple majority to get through the Senate. But earlier this week, Republicans there released their own version of college accountability.
--:-- Corey Turner: So basically, like everything else in this bill, House and Senate Republicans are going to have to find a middle ground or give up on the idea.
--:-- Michelle Martin: That is NPR's Corey Turner. Corey, thank you.
--:-- Corey Turner: You're welcome.
--:-- Michelle Martin: And that's Up First for Thursday, June 12. I'm Michelle Martin.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: And I'm Steve Inskeep.
--:-- Michelle Martin: For your next listen, consider Consider This from NPR News. Up First gives you three big stories of the day. Consider This dives into a single news story and what it means to you in less than 15 minutes.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: Listen now on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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--:-- Michelle Martin: Today's episode of Up First was edited by Dana Farrington, Neela Banerjee, Nicole Cohen, Lisa Thomson, and Alice Woefle.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: It was produced by Ziad Buchh, Nia Dumas, and Christopher Thomas.
--:-- Michelle Martin: We get engineering support from Neisha Heinis and our technical director is Carleigh Strange.
--:-- Steve Inskeep: We hope you'll join us again tomorrow.
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