Don Lemon on the End of His X Partnership

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway: And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher: And Kara, Kate Middleton is with me. She's been rolling with the dog. She needed a little break. She and I are very close. We're hanging out.

Scott Galloway: You're both getting BBLs, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Can I introduce myself? Like I'm a co-host and I'm Don Lemon. Welcome to... Oh my god. I hear you. Thank you.

Scott Galloway: Let's jump right in. Don Lemon and Elon Musk have consciously uncoupled.

Don Lemon: Don, the only reason I'm doing this interview is because you're on the X platform and you asked for it. Otherwise, I would not do this interview.

Kara Swisher: So you don't think, do you think that you wouldn't get in trouble or you wouldn't be criticized for these things?

Don Lemon: I'm criticized constantly. I could care less.

Kara Swisher: Yes, after recording a 90-minute interview last week for Lemon's upcoming show, Musk texted Lemon's rep, contract canceled. Isn't it ironic that you've been canceled? And you thought you're uncancelable.

Don Lemon: Yes, you are, but apparently.

Kara Swisher: I never thought that, but go on.

Scott Galloway: All right, joining us now to talk about this, obviously, friend of Pivot, Don Lemon. And hello, Don. What's going on?

Don Lemon: Hi, Kara. Hi, Prop G. Hi.

Kara Swisher: Listen, we need to stop. We want to find out what happened. And I know you talked a little bit on CNN last night about it. And welcome back to CNN, by the way.

Don Lemon: I know. How weird. That was such a weird experience.

Kara Swisher: Why? Why so? Because you were in the building?

Don Lemon: Well, I mean, I went back to the place where I no longer work. Almost a year. Not quite. It was April. I was in the same studio. Aaron and I always shared a studio. They just switched the desk around, right? That studio with the stairs. And so they would just switch backgrounds and switch the desk around. And all of my entire camera crew and producers were there. It was just very surreal.

Kara Swisher: Was it a happy homecoming? They like you. I know that.

Don Lemon: Everyone showed up. People came out of the control room. They came in from... they were very happy to see me.

Kara Swisher: Oh, very nice.

Don Lemon: And then I was happy to see them. But I had to leave just because it was too emotional. I was going to start crying.

Kara Swisher: Oh, you could cry. That would be okay. But listen, listen, we need to know what happened. But first, there's already conspiracy theories. So I'm going to read this comment from a Threads user, SB Kurt. "Y'all are so gullible. This is manufactured. Remember when Hostess Cupcakes was going bankrupt and out of business and there was a run on Ho-Hos? Well, these two Ho-Hos are playing, y'all." Just so you know, people think now it's a plot between you and Elon to boost watching of this. That's not it.

Don Lemon: Kara, you know that's not it.

Kara Swisher: I know it. I'm just laughing. I mean, like, you know what? Because we talked about this, you know, soon after I left CNN, I said, what am I going to do? I'm going to take the summer off. Give me some ideas to ponder. You gave me some ideas.

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And then I came back to you with an idea of, told you that X was reaching out to me. I think it was Twitter then, right?

Don Lemon: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And you said, no, don't do it. Don't. I was like, this is the plot of Get Out. Do not do it. Do not do it.

Don Lemon: But we also chatted about this partnership with X at my event for the book, which you kindly moderated just a few weeks ago at the 92nd Street Y. I did voice my concerns then. Let's listen.

Kara Swisher: I was listening to you and Scott the other day. I don't remember the specifics of the conversation, but you guys were saying you have to get in the ring.

Don Lemon: Yes.

Kara Swisher: And I think you were talking about going on and responding to people or whatever.

Don Lemon: Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher: So that's how I feel about X is that I don't think that you should seed that platform. It's such a huge and powerful platform to extremists. And I think you've got to get in there and fight.

Don Lemon: Fair.

Kara Swisher: And if someone says something that you don't like or you think is off base, then you have to challenge them. And that may even mean challenging the person who owns that.

Don Lemon: That's true.

Kara Swisher: But I think everything he does is going to hang around your neck. That was my worry for you. And you shouldn't have to worry about that. We'll see.

Scott Galloway: So tell us what happened.

Don Lemon: You mean how this deal came about?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, yeah.

Don Lemon: Okay, so as you know, Elon Musk very publicly tweeted saying, inviting me to the platform. And then Tucker eventually started a show and he said, this is what everyone should be doing. Don Lemon should be doing this. I was... and then I got a phone call from someone. I told you, I don't know if you want to mention the name, but you said that they were acting on behalf. Obviously they were acting on behalf of Elon, someone who is in a very high profile position who, you know, bold name said, you should do this. It's great for you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so that was very early on. And I said, no.

And then Linda Iaccarino was signed on as CEO. And she knows a lot of people that you and I know, very respected people. She was at NBC. She was at NBC. And they said, wait till Linda, you know, gets on board. And we did. And then they reached out again. They kept reaching out and they kept pursuing me. And I said, yeah. And they, you know, they kept sweetening the deal. And I said, of course. And so we started working. I said, I will only do this if I can be myself on your platform. The only reason I'm coming to your platform is because I think Twitter, I think it was Twitter at the time or maybe it was changing in text, whatever. It's interchangeable. I think it's the biggest platform for news besides being on a network and for people who are speaking out and who are commenting on news. When people want to know about news, if there's a breaking story, the first thing they do is they pick up their phone and they go to Twitter or they go to X and they want to see what's trending or what have you. And I said, I want to be myself. And I'm going to have to criticize the person who owns this platform. And they said, that's completely fine. That's what we want. We want you to be you. And we're all about free speech. Elon's a free speech absolutist. He would text me. We would text each other and we would talk about these things. He said, I want you on the platform. This is what you should be doing. And everyone said, you're going to be free to be yourself. And that's how it came about.

Kara Swisher: Right. Can you give specifics? They gave you a lot of money to be not exclusive. I think people are confused by this. You could be anywhere, right? You can put your stuff, your new show on YouTube or Instagram or wherever you feel like, correct?

Don Lemon: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not gonna look, I'm not gonna go into specifics about the money and that's not what you're asking me. But was there a financial part of it? Absolutely. Was it enticing? Absolutely.

Kara Swisher: What did they get for extra 10 minutes?

Don Lemon: Yeah. So here's the thing. Everyone thinks it was an X show. It was not an X show. It was my show produced by my production company, which is called LMN or Lemon Media Network, produced by my company. They had no editorial control over it. At first we wanted to do five days a week. And then I said, you know, everyone in this business said, that's too much, do three days a week. You even told me that, like, don't get crazy. And so we decided to do three days a week and three shows a week. What X wanted was some exclusive material. So I think I had to give them like 10 videos or something like that per week. And I think they had to be like 10 minutes long or what have you. That was extra things on top of the episodes. My episodes were already going to air everywhere, right? They're going to be on YouTube. They're going to be on iHeart, wherever you get streaming or podcasts. And so they just wanted some extra material on top of that. And that material had to be exclusive to them for 24 hours. And then it went everywhere. That's all they got. And so I said, if you're going to pay me this money and I'm going to be posting on your platform, if I didn't get this for free, it's a no-brainer. You're giving me money to post on X. So it was a no-brainer to me because people promote their material and their content on X anyways. Even people who don't like it, they're still on X. And I asked a lot of people, you don't like X, why are you still on it? They said, because there's nothing else better. So that was a deal.

Kara Swisher: So let me ask you one more quick, and then Scott can jump in. So were they selling your advertising?

Don Lemon: Were they selling my advertising?

Kara Swisher: Yes, they were selling advertising around you.

Don Lemon: Around you.

Kara Swisher: On X.

Don Lemon: On X. And I think what they wanted was someone who was not an extremist, someone who wasn't a right-wing conspiracy theorist that they could sell to the advertisers. And they took you to CES and showed you off. Linda likes to do that. Had a dinner and showed you off to advertisers, correct?

Don Lemon: Yes. And, um, do you know this?

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: Yeah. I want to say something, but I don't know if I should say it.

Kara Swisher: Oh, you should.

Don Lemon: Yes.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Go ahead.

Don Lemon: Yeah. Why not? They said to my representatives, if I didn't get on a plane and go to CES, the deal was off.

Kara Swisher: Okay. So they needed your face.

Don Lemon: They needed me there. And then they, you know, trotted me out to their clients and their potential advertisers and what have you. Looked on Lemon. And I was... There's always either the marquee person, right, the top of the thing, or the person that they're like, and finally, Don Lemon.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, you know what I mean?

Don Lemon: Yeah, we've been at those dinners.

Kara Swisher: All right, Scott?

Scott Galloway: Yeah, Don, good to see you. So, I don't want to speak specifically to working with Elon Musk, but what's it like to work with a malignant narcissist who is abusing a dissociative narcotic, just generally speaking? Generally speaking.

Don Lemon: God.

Scott Galloway: Well, I've never worked with you, Scott, so I don't know.

Kara Swisher: Oh! Boom! Don bringing the fire.

Don Lemon: Listen, your question is moot, I think, because I never really worked with him. I didn't have that much contact with Elon Musk. The contact I had with him is he called me. I think he was in Paris. We had a long conversation for about 45 minutes in the summer. After I spoke to him, I spoke with Kara, and I said, I don't want to do this, what have you. He was very nice on the phone. I think his mom was sitting there next to him. And we were talking about it. He's very kind, very friendly. I have nothing against Elon Musk. As a matter of fact, during the interview, I felt some empathy for him because I was just like, this is someone who is a brilliant man in some aspects, but he's emotionally immature. And I could pick that up in the interview and a bit insecure. But I have nothing against Elon Musk. I've never really worked with him. I had never met him in person until I did that interview. We shared some texts, you know, I'm going to call you or when are you free? And then around DealBook, I texted him and I think I said something like, wow, it's surprising you said that, but here's what I like that you said. And he said, free speech is when people you don't like say things you don't like. And I said, you know what? I agree with you on that. That's probably one of the only things that we agree on. I may not agree with you, but I'm going to fight like hell for your right to be able to say it.

Kara Swisher: I just want to tell people who don't know, he kind of had a meltdown on stage with Andrew Ross Sorkin and said, essentially said, fuck you to Bob Iger. But go ahead.

Don Lemon: That's exactly what he said. Go fuck yourself. That's what he said. That's what he said.

Kara Swisher: So, okay. So, Mr. Free Speech, it's important, consistently says it's important that people say what they want to say and people don't like it. What did you say that he didn't like that he then fired you unceremoniously for?

Don Lemon: You'll have to ask him, Scott.

Kara Swisher: But you were in the room, Don. What's your sense, right? What do you think upset him enough to literally, my understanding is within 24 hours, send you-

Don Lemon: Facts, Scott, right? When presented with facts about things that he tweets about, and I'll still call it tweeting, about his posts, he didn't like that. When I asked him about his alleged drug use that has been reported in the Wall Street Journal, very credible organizations, when I asked him about his ketamine use that he himself had tweeted about, he himself put out there, he bristled at that. And I said, I wouldn't talk about these things, Elon. I wouldn't talk about your ketamine use if you had not publicly said that. How would I even know about it? And he actually had a very good answer. He said, the reason I talked about it is because I thought it would help people. And if you're on SSRIs, maybe you should consider taking ketamine. And I think he's absolutely right. I myself have suffered from depression. He talked about depression and his use of ketamine. And I said, I have suffered from depression and I agree with you. You should try different things. I used to do talk therapy and my doctor actually tried drug therapy on me. I've done stories about people with PTSD who have done ketamine and other drugs and it has actually helped him. So we agreed on that, but that went over his head. I don't think he even heard it because I just don't think that he liked sitting there taking questions from me, someone that he has a history with and just being held accountable and just being held to facts.

When I talked about DEI and about what he tweeted about. Remember the Alaskan Airlines pilot who, when the door blew off and the plan, and she landed the plane successfully, somehow that was a DEI thing. And I said, but this is a woman who landed a plane successfully. That means that she is actually qualified to do a job. So I don't understand why you're tweeting the things that you're tweeting. No evidence of what you're putting out there. And he said, well, it would just be awful if we're lowering the standards on air safety and it would be awful if we're lowering the standards for medical school because of DEI. And I said, yes, that would be awful, but there is no actual evidence that it is happening. So why are you doing it? It is hypothetical. He said, all I'm saying is that it would be terrible and we shouldn't do it. I said, yes, everyone agrees with that, but why would I say it? Because it's not happening.

Kara Swisher: Right. And what did he say?

Don Lemon: He didn't like pushback. He didn't like pushback. But I am raising my voice now louder than I did in that interview because I did not want that to happen. So I was very calm and I asked him, if you see, it's just straightforward questions with follow-ups and that's it.

Kara Swisher: Right. So he called your approach saying basically just CNN but on social media. And it's really just Jeff Zucker talking through Don, who you worked with, Jeff Zucker at CNN. How did you react to this?

Don Lemon: It's stupid. I mean, that was read to me secondhand. And I think he tweeted about it, or at least that was in his response to the press after this happened. I mean, I think it's silly. I think he thinks by putting Jeff's name that it's somehow going to get more attention and he's being a provocateur because people may look at Jeff as a person. Well, not may look at Jeff. They obviously know he ran CNN. And so that is sort of, you know, that adds to the, you know, he's a liberal, a lefty CNN, you know, person. And so that adds to that. And I think it gives him credibility in that right-wing conspiracy world or that right-wing sort of bro podcast world. Where people don't like the mainstream media, but they watch Fox News all the time, which is part of the mainstream media.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, which he also was making up.

Don Lemon: Everwonder Studios is producing my show. And I was approached by Ian, who formerly worked for Time, Inc., for Everwonder Studios. It's a coincidence, but I'm proud to work with Everwonder Studios, and I'm proud to work with Jeff Zucker. And I think Jeff Zucker is one of the most talented media executives to ever live. And so to have him as a personal friend and as a mentor and someone who counsels me occasionally, I am not ashamed of that at all. I'm actually very proud of that. I'm lucky to have that in my mind.

Kara Swisher: Because you shouldn't be. Let me ask, when you left the interview, you know, when I do interviews, I, you know, I sort of know how they feel, essentially. Did you have any idea how he felt?

Don Lemon: I did. And I kept texting you. I was like, oh, you're going to get fired tomorrow, no matter what you did. I did. But I said to you, you know, you know, we talked about it. Said, this wasn't, we compared someone in the business. This wasn't a situation where I was going to get guff for someone saying that I was bought and paid for because it was actually, I said, I think I said it was, what did I say? Tense. It wasn't comfy at times. I think it's what I texted you. And it wasn't, it was tense.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: So, so it was, so when you left, you weren't thinking there was an issue. Did anyone else there from X think it was an issue? Did you hear from Linda or anybody else?

Kara Swisher: Here's the thing. I didn't think it was an issue because I've had tense interviews before. And it wasn't quite a walk-off, but it was, you know, at the end, he was like, choose your questions carefully because I have to go and I don't like, you know, basically saying, I don't like the direction of your question.

Don Lemon: Yeah, but that's his move. He did that. He likes, I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave. It's very like Norma Desmond of him.

Kara Swisher: I stayed very calm. And that was my reaction whenever he threatened to leave or whenever it was just like, I think this is really good. This discourse is really good. And I think you should continue.

Don Lemon: Yeah, you have to do that. But it's really ridiculous that you have to baby a billionaire. But at the end, you know, he did say they said at least an hour. They didn't say it had to be one hour. They said at least an hour. And he said, you know, I've been here for an hour and I have people waiting for me and I have to go. But he grew measurably, I think, more uncomfortable towards the end of the interview. And he said, you know, choose your questions. Why is it? Because I got to go.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. You've been there.

Don Lemon: Yes.

Kara Swisher: Oh, he does the stupid threatening. I'm walking off and that never does bullshit. It's like one of his moves. It's ridiculous.

Don Lemon: But I knew he was upset when he left. I knew he wasn't happy. But I thought, you know, he's done this before. I thought he had done this before. And I did some research, but I'll tell you. And he'll be fine. It was just him, you know, not being used to answering questions. And when I looked over the interviews that he did, most of them are from a friendly crowd. From people who had basically the same, similar worldviews as his. And for someone like me who looks completely different than him, who has a completely different background and a completely different worldview, to be held accountable and to question him, I thought was just...

Kara Swisher: He's not been in that world. He's been steeped in people who agree with him violently for a long time now.

Don Lemon: I just think it was, you know, for him, it was just like, why am I doing this?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, exactly. So fast forward, you did it, and then you heard this thing. And what was, did you hear from Linda ever? Did she write you, who has been like slavishly trying to land your deal?

Don Lemon: Fast forward to when?

Kara Swisher: When they told you.

Don Lemon: When I heard about it.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: So the interview happened on Friday. So we spent the next afternoon in Austin, and I was trying to, remember, I was trying to hook up with you just to say hi or to do something, but I had to leave. And so I land at Newark Airport on Saturday evening, very rainy Saturday evening. And my agent calls and says, hey, I need you to step out. Where are you? I got to talk to you. And I said, I can't. And he goes, no, I need you to. I said, I can't. I'm taxiing. And he goes, where are you taxiing? In Austin? Are you still there? And I said, no, I just landed in New York. And he said, well, I just got a text from Elon. And I said, OK, what did he say? And he said, he's very upset. He read me the text. It was kind of, I don't know if I would say vulgar.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I've gotten this text. You would say vulgar?

Don Lemon: Probably. And it was very insulting. And then he said, deal canceled, or contract canceled. And so I was sitting next to my executive producer, Jonathan Wald, and I said, I'm on with Jay, and he said, Elon said the contract was canceled. And we looked at it, and she was like, what? What? Why? I don't know. And then, I don't know, in that moment, I was just like, good, good. I'm tired. I was, I went into this with my eyes open, but I was so tired of the pushback that I was getting from people who really loved me, from people who really supported me. And although I thought I was doing the right thing, I knew I was doing the right thing because I wanted my work to be presented and amplified to the biggest, to the largest number of people who could receive it. And I do believe, as you know, in free speech, and I do believe that we should have better discourse in this country with people we don't agree with. My mom and I have disagreements all the time. I still go to visit her for Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever. She's coming to my wedding or whatever. I mean, but we still love each other. We don't do that in this country because-

Kara Swisher: She doesn't say, sonship canceled. She doesn't say sonship.

Don Lemon: So he doesn't say that.

Scott Galloway: I mean, my sense is, Don, and obviously you're probably still processing this, but if you were going to try and launch a show, the biggest get would be to get Elon Musk to do your initial show. The even bigger get is to get him and then have him freak out and fire you. I mean, isn't this out of central casting for how to launch a show? Isn't this a great thing? Because my, I mean, a couple of things, my understanding is the way you've depicted it is you have a show and Twitter was just going to be one of many distribution outlets. One, that does that mean the show is going to air? And two, I just can't imagine this playing out any better for Don Lemon. Your thoughts?

Don Lemon: Yeah, you're right. So the moment I got the call, that's what I said. I was like, well, if he is going to cancel this contract, because at first I thought, well, he's just being petulant and, you know, he'll, cooler heads will prevail and whatever. And I said, but if he does, do it before the show airs. Because as you said, Scott, that would be the best thing to happen to me. Do it before the show airs and tweet about it if you're going to do it. And so I could not have asked for a bigger promotion for the show than this. But, you know, I think that in the long term, having X on board, and if I could have done some work with them, I think it would have been helpful in the long term to the growth of the business promotion. Because you know, they use the algorithm. And I told you I was using their analytics. Basically, I was going to use them as a newsroom, as my newsroom, since I don't have the big newsroom behind.

Kara Swisher: Let me just ask a crass question, though. Do you get paid out?

Don Lemon: That is something that you'll have to ask my representatives. We're still in the middle of that. I have an agreement with them, and I expect them to abide by that agreement. And if they don't, they're in breach.

Kara Swisher: Well, you weren't terminated for cause, so why wouldn't you be paid out?

Don Lemon: Well, let me, because apparently he didn't sign this contract. Is that correct? Even though he said contract canceled and therefore is acknowledging there's a contract, correct? Again, to my understanding, again, I would prefer my representatives to discuss this, that there was an agreement, that we have an agreement. And again, And they said, if I did not go to CES, that the deal was off.

Kara Swisher: I see.

Don Lemon: They announced it to the world.

Kara Swisher: Yes, they did do a press release.

Don Lemon: They trotted me out to... I mean, they touted it quite a bit that you were going to be there.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they trotted me out to advertisers. I went to several events at X to entice advertisers and to meet all of their employees. We had a deal, and I expect them to abide by it. And I will, we will go to court if we have to.

Kara Swisher: But you didn't sign. Is that correct? Just because there's been lots of different reporting.

Don Lemon: I don't know what the representatives, as far as I did not, but I don't know what.

Kara Swisher: Yes.

Don Lemon: Okay.

Kara Swisher: All right. I've been in those contracts. So in any case, have you spoken to Linda Yaccarino at all? Did you hear from her at all?

Don Lemon: I heard from Linda the next morning, on Sunday morning.

Kara Swisher: Did she know what had happened? Did she? That's a very good question. Did the CEO know?

Don Lemon: No.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

Don Lemon: The CEO got a text from Elon. She had never, she had not, when I spoke to her, she had not spoken to him. She called me to say, you know, just try to smooth it over and to find out what happened. And I just want to know what was going on because, you know, I haven't even spoken to him and I'm waiting to get in touch with him and what have you. But I think it took a while for her to get in touch with him.

Kara Swisher: Whatever. He fired the wrong person, Don.

Don Lemon: Anyways, sorry, go ahead.

Kara Swisher: Let me tell you, look, if there was ever any question about who is running X, there isn't one now.

Don Lemon: Yeah, it's Elon Musk.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. That's who's running X. Did she apologize or she never... She makes so many excuses. I don't remember if she apologized, but she was very apologetic if that makes sense.

Don Lemon: Right.

Kara Swisher: Yes, it was sort of very contrite and saying, you know, I want to smooth this over. You know, I think that you're great for the platform. We love having you on the platform. You've been a team player, blah, blah, blah. And I think that I'm trying to get Elon to understand. And quite frankly, I said, I think that he was just uncomfortable in the moment. And what will actually turn out in the interview, he's going to look better than he thought. Right? Because this wasn't a gotcha interview. This was just a Q&A. I was just having a conversation with him, questions and answers. And I think just, you know, again, just because he was so uncomfortable for some reason for my mere presence and questions, I just think that was the discomfort. When you see the interview, there are nuggets in there. He does make news in there. I don't attack him and there are no gotcha questions. I think people are gonna walk away from this interview and say, they're gonna say, what did he fire? Well, he didn't fire me because I didn't work for him. But why did he cancel the contract? I think even his own people will wonder what the hell he's thinking.

Kara Swisher: They will say nothing to him. They will say nothing to him. So if he called you and said, oh God, I really flew off the handle, would you come back? What would you say to him?

Don Lemon: I would say pay me what you owe me. And it was great. I really enjoyed this learning experience and the best of luck to you and everyone at your organization.

Kara Swisher: What's your advice for the next person who wants to do business with them? Because, you know, he didn't pay out the Twitter executives. He hasn't paid out regular employees. I've heard from dozens of them. They're in severance hell with this guy. Doesn't pay rents. I mean, he's like Trump times six in this regard of paying bills. What advice would you have for the next person who wants to do one? Because this is one of Linda Yaccarina's big thing is we're going to make this immediate. Now she was touting video when she knew full well what was going on here.

Don Lemon: Well, if you read the New York Times piece, advertisers were still trying to advertise around my show. They were using my show. What would I do? And by the way, I'll answer your question. There were people who were asking me, a talent in this business, a number of people, oh my God, your deal with that sounds very interesting. What do I do? How do I do this? You know, this is the future. I think what you're doing is really smart, right? And so I told them to call my agent, call Oren Rosenbaum, right? Who's a digital guru at UTA. He's a podcast. Yeah, and have him work that out. And there were a number of people who reached out to me and a number of people who reached out to my representatives because of that. And if those people want to go to X, I'm sure they would. But I was in a position to actually bring normal journalists to them. I shouldn't say normal, more centrist journalists to them and not mostly right-wing people. Or I shouldn't say just journalists, talent. And also advertisers. There were advertisers who said, oh my God, I'm so excited about what you're doing. I'm so excited about this new project. We want to support you. But X, eh. So in the end with the advertisers, they weren't really helping. And as you told me, do this on your own, invest and bet on yourself. Advertisers were more excited about working with me than they were about working with X. And there were some who were coming to the platform. I don't know if they'll still do it. They may still do it because of me. And we'll see how that plays out now. But I would say to them, go into it with your eyes open. I cannot tell you what to do. You told me not to do it. I did it and I found out. And I wouldn't even say the hard way. I actually enjoyed the experience.

Kara Swisher: No.

Don Lemon: All right.

Kara Swisher: Okay. But just so you know, you're not going to get paid. I told you get paid up front, didn't I?

Kara Swisher: No, he'll get paid just after a judge decides he's getting paid.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that's true. That could be.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Also, listen, but I think there was an even sort of trade-off. Well, I shouldn't say that. I don't know that to be true. But alluding to what Scott said, the promotion from this has been, I don't really know how you put a dollar amount on that. But if Elon had just not said anything and let the interview run, it would be over two days after.

Scott Galloway: Yeah. You got musked. You got musked.

Kara Swisher: Well, just an observation and a question. I always like to try and glean a learning from our guests or younger people. And that is a lot of times when you get laid off or fired, it has nothing to do with you and to forgive yourself. And just nothing's ever as good or as bad as it seems. And Don, I can just hear in your voice, you're fine. I get the sense you're sleeping just fine. The question I have is, so you're a, you're, you were and still are a kind of a cable news star. Cable news is in decline. The audience is shrinking. There's more talent than there is audience on cable news right now. And you've left and you're trying to shape kind of a new strategy, different distribution channels, maybe a new positioning for your show. Can you sort of walk us through, and it's probably a work in progress. Can you walk us through your strategy for how you're going to try and maintain relevance, maintain an income stream and sort of adapt to this new world. What's your thinking and your strategy here around the show and how you kind of move forward?

Don Lemon: Well, number one, I'm in a position where I can, at least for a couple of years, I can try things, right? I can experiment and I intend to do that. Do I think that my relevance or my income or whatever it is, that it's going to be the same as when it was on CNN? No. I mean, I'm not working for CNN. And if I went to a different network, my relevance and my income would be different. And so I don't expect that. I think people start media companies or they start streaming and they think they're going to be the same as they were on broadcast media or cable media. No, I'm not that naive. I'm a 58-year-old man, and I know, and I'm very realistic about life. Do I think I have another chapter? Absolutely. Absolutely. And look, I think I'm still relevant. I think I'm more relevant than people who are on cable news right now. Just because I am open and willing to try new things, and I am not afraid of anything. I'm not afraid of Elon Musk. I wasn't afraid of anyone that I've ever worked with, any interview subject, the former president of the United States, I'm not. And so I believe with the, you have to have the right attitude about life. If you have a positive attitude about life, you try things, you don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, then you will go on and be successful. What I, out of this, what I said, you know, people wondered like, why hasn't Don announced anything? Why hasn't he announced a job? Why hasn't he found a job? None of that was true. People don't understand what contracts mean in this business. You have non-competes, you have time limits that you can do. You have to wait a certain amount of time before you can even look for a job, all of those things. There are certain things about direct competitors where you can't go on, people who are your direct competitors. And so I wanna continue to be able to afford the lifestyle that I have. And so those things aren't even in the realm possibility to me. What I'm doing now, it just happens to be where the future of this industry is going. It's going to this, and I'm holding up a cell phone right now, not this giant television that is behind me, not the giant movie screen. So whatever I'm going to do, what I'm going to do next is lean into that, to the digital part of this, to the small screen part of this. And Scott, you talk about that as well. So what I'm going to do is take whatever I can, invest in my business. I'm going to be lean and mean. And I'm going to spend the money up top to get it running, to look the best that it can. And once I figure out how to do this thing, then I'm going to slim it down even more so that I am running this entire business, not doing everything for myself, but that I have a few of the right people around me and do it the way that it should be done. Let me tell you what I've learned. If you're watching something on a small screen, people don't care about that giant studio around you with the million lights that cost five, $10 million and all of those swoosh and whatever. They just want the information. And they don't care if you have 50 producers or 10 writers. They want what they want from you. And that is quality and that is information. And they want someone who's going to be authentic. And so that's where this is going. This isn't the way of the, I look at this, it's akin to the studio system from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and maybe even the 60s in Hollywood. Those days are gone. And so people have to become their own brands. You have to become your own studio and your own entrepreneur. The best advice that I got was from Kara Swisher. And it clicked in my head in that moment. I remember I was standing in my kitchen in Sag Harbor. You said, you're no longer a talent. You're an entrepreneur. And the minute you said that, I was like, fuck yeah, she's right. I'm an entrepreneur. I need to learn how to be a businessman. I had never had to do that because everyone was always taking care of me.

Kara Swisher: They coddle you, Don.

Don Lemon: They coddle you. Now it's Don 2.0, lean and mean.

Kara Swisher: I know, I know.

Don Lemon: Just real quick. And so, no, I was never mean. But so now I'm an entrepreneur and I have to learn how to be an entrepreneur. And with that, I tell people, I don't know this part of the business. Help me out. Okay, help me understand this. I want to sign every check. I want to see every invoice. Like, give it to me. I want to learn how to do it. And so that's where I am now. And guess what? It's hard, but I love it. And I'm learning. And you know what? I am going to be successful. So I don't know if I answered your question, but that's what I'm doing.

Kara Swisher: There you go. Don Lemon. And I have to say, Don Lemon, you've done well for getting into beefs with people. You got that contract paid out. You're going to probably get this one. Don Lemon does firing well or whatever. It's not firing. You know what I mean? Don Lemon, thank you. And people can check out the premiere of the Don Lemon show, which I'm going to be on, on March 18th on X.

Don Lemon: Yes, it will still be posted there as well as YouTube or wherever you get your videos. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe. Subscribe. @donlemon.

Kara Swisher: So Scott.

Scott Galloway: Yes.

Kara Swisher: Scott, I love you, buddy. Let's get together. I know we tried. It didn't happen. And Kara, you are my sister. I'm going to get a little emotional. I love you so much. Thank you. If I could only be you when I grow up, I'd be happy.

Scott Galloway: You can't. You just can't.

Kara Swisher: Still time.

Scott Galloway: She's much older than you, Dawn.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, Dawn, thank you. Thank you, guys. Good luck. I love you, guys. And let us know if Elon calls.

Don Lemon: You know, if you start hugging, he hugs it out, bitch.

Kara Swisher: Should I call him now?

Don Lemon: No. No.

Kara Swisher: Just a quick update before we go to break. We reached out to X to get their reaction to Don's comments about his agreement with the platform. They referred us to an X post from Elon Musk on March 13th. It reads, "Lemon Emoji is welcome to monetize on this platform just like everyone else. What we aren't going to do is guarantee minimum payments to him as he was demanding, which would be going beyond everyone else. Unfortunately, all Lemon Emoji wants to do is rehash the dying CNN business model, quote, but on social media, which will do even worse here than it did on cable TV." All right. That's the news from Elon Musk. I also will note he did text the representatives for Don Lemon a contract canceled. So he also thinks there was a contract. You all figure it out. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the future of TikTok after the passage of that bill in the House this week.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, we're back and we're just going to deal with one big story this week. A bill requiring TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, to sell the app within 180 days or risk having it banned in the U.S. has passed through the House. It's on its way to the Senate where it is going to slow considerably. But the legislation had a significant amount of bipartisan support in the House, passing with a sweeping margin of 352 to 65. Its future, again, in the Senate is uncertain. Rand Paul is against it. It's not clear what Chuck Schumer's doing. He's going to put it up. Very short time span. But President Biden said he would sign it if it makes it to his desk. We knew the bill would pass. We said that at South by Southwest. Senate Majority Leader, again, Chuck Schumer hasn't committed. Paul is going to call the bill a draconian measure that stifles free expression. TikTok said in a statement it hopes that the Senate will consider the facts, listen to their constituents, and realize the impact on the economy and the 170 million Americans who use our service. It's a couple things. Again, it may not at all pass, but there's all, you know, they've been trying to enlist, as you said, you noted your own team to call in. That sort of backfired, I think, here. And a lot of people are, half the people are saying national security risk, half the people are saying free speech. It should be able to continue. Any thoughts on the passing? And then I have one more question about it.

Scott Galloway: I think, I mean, I'm really hoping for it. I don't think America has, I think that we elect people to think long term and prevent a tragedy of the commons and protect our borders. And one of our Achilles heels as Americans is we're hugely optimistic, which is our superpower. But the downside of that is that Americans are easier to fool than convinced we've been fooled. And the fact that we have let the CCP or a CCP-influenced entity implant a neural jack of our youth under the age of 25 for several hours a day, that's just a risk we shouldn't tolerate. So I think for the first time in a long time, we're going to see our elected leaders, quite frankly, do their job as it relates to social media. And unfortunately, there's some basis in what I'll call jingoism or just anti-Chinese sentiment. I don't care. But also, the only other observation I would make here is that Prime Minister Sunak essentially said he's going to move forward legislation to not allow a Gulf-backed entity by a very powerful newspaper there. This is Jeff Zucker's thing, Jeff Zucker and is it Abu Dhabi?

Kara Swisher: Abu Dhabi.

Scott Galloway: And to be honest, I think America still, but California sort of leads the way for America. It always has. And America leads the way for the world. And I got to believe that the prime minister in his cabinet looked at the fact that we're pushing back on a foreign entity controlling our media and said, you know, they're right. And we can't have the same thing here. As much as I love Jeff Zucker and I want him to be successful and he will, there's something uncomfortable about foreign entities that maybe don't share our concerns having that kind of influence.

Kara Swisher: Well, it's interesting. There has been a little bit of pushback because, you know, there are foreign enemies that own newspapers and things like that or different things. It's in broadcast that it's been very-

Scott Galloway: But not of its dominance. That's loosened up.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but I have to say, this is broadcast. I'm sorry. This is a version of broadcast and that's what it is. And so we've always been very particular around broadcast, less so around newspaper. Well, Rupert Murdoch had to become an American citizen and sell off.

Scott Galloway: He did. I mean, this isn't new. Yeah. This isn't. And anyway, I'm really hopeful about this. And also, I think it's going to be, words matter. We really screwed up calling it a ban. They should have just called it regulation.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's regulation. It'll be interesting. I think you're right. I think there's a couple of congressmen. I have to say, they haven't been too jingoistic. There was a congressperson that was on threads that said who did a great explanation of why she voted for it. She's like, it's a national security issue. Even if they didn't do it, they could. Like, don't be silly. And it was interesting. I thought she didn't. And let me just say, the other thing is, it's not going away, kids. It's not going away. This will not be going away. You're going to have your TikTok. You're going to have your TikTok. I mean, that is, I talked to some people at TikTok. I was like, stop saying it's going away. It's not going away. It's just not. It's simply not. Now, whether the Chinese government will make a move, I don't think they have a move. And you both of us don't. But there are a lot of moves. Former Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin just told CNBC a little while ago that he's building an investor group to acquire the network. Bobby Kotick's name has been raised. There's all kinds of people trying to...

Scott Galloway: No shortage of money here.

Kara Swisher: No shortage of money. So some analysts estimate the U.S. portion of TikTok could be worth more than $50 billion. One of those investors is Jeff Yast in ByteDance. Obviously, this is why President Trump shifted his stance on this, because he used to be... He's the one that really brought this up in the first place. Also, Kellyanne Conway, one of his advisors, seems to be working against these bills. and you know also there's all and then oracle it's an oracle's interest larry ellison's in support of him to keep project texas going which is to clean up keep it in chinese hands and and have a separate thing it's a billion dollar contract so it's in president trump is so mobbed up here in terms of money it's kind of crazy um but uh what what do you think of the deals like give me a very i don't i think whatever china does it doesn't matter they don't have they They don't have a say anymore.

Scott Galloway: Well, the thing that for me literally crystallized and brought into sharp relief the problem, my 13-year-old son got a message from TikTok saying, stop the TikTok ban. Are you down with the GRU and Putin being able to directly reach out to our children and get them to take political action? Is that, even if you put it all aside, the go-to here is trade symmetry. And that's actually the kind of the crux of the bill that won't run or foul First Amendment. We should allow BYD, electric car company from China, into our country because they allow Tesla into theirs. We should allow CNN because they allow the North Face into China. They would never allow an American media company in. Their version of TikTok is science experiments, astronauts, pianists. They get the spinach version. They ship us the opium version.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. What will China do? Someone was like, what will China do? I'm like, well, you know, they'll kick our social media sites out of their, oh, wait.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, that happened 10 years ago.

Kara Swisher: What? Like, what are they going to go for Apple? They're not going to do that. Anyway, one of the things, though, I have to say, Alex Damos, who is a great, smart guy, he did make a good point here on Threads. He goes, that's why it's incredibly important to get this TikTok bill right. The focus on speech instead of privacy, the specific naming of ByteDance when neutral criteria would clearly suffice, And the pulling in of American tech companies via the apps to our provisions are all serious weak points. A federal privacy bill that protects users' data and also controls data flow to our adversaries would be more defensible and comprehensible. I think he's kind of right there. And he said there are thousands of Chinese companies to be concerned about. And I hope the Senate takes the House's initial offer and strengthens this bill. Also, it's been done before with Grindr. We've done this. We've done it with other companies many times before. So this is not unprecedented for our government to do this. In any case, we'll see where it goes. Should you and I put together a plan and buy it? What do you think?

Scott Galloway: Consortium? Can we do a split with Don LeMond?

Kara Swisher: There's going to be, oh my gosh. With Di LeMond. Once it becomes, I can't imagine how many people with deep pockets. First off, Sequoia and General Atlantic Partners are already in there. There's going to be absolutely no shortage of people willing to put together a consortium. There's going to be.

Scott Galloway: So you don't think we can?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, okay. There's going to be a bidding war for this. This is...

Scott Galloway: Yeah. I bet Musk comes in here, speaking of people. He'll probably want to.

Kara Swisher: I mean, that just means there's fame involved. He comes into everything. So you're not going to lose your TikTok. You're not going to lose your TikTok.

Scott Galloway: Yeah, Microsoft should go in here. That's what I think.

Kara Swisher: Well, there's a bunch. I mean, there'll be people big and small. We'll see. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction.

Scott Galloway: Well, my prediction is very straightforward. You can buy, even though ByteDance is a private firm, you can buy shares of it in the private market because there are now these secondary markets that have emerged. And what they do is when employees want to get some liquidity because companies are waiting longer and longer to go public, they can sell their shares in the open market or on a secondary market. And the valuation of ByteDance right now in the secondary market, I believe, is somewhere between 220 and 250 billion. The ban is going to take the value, send the value of ByteDance shares soaring. And this is why. ByteDance, or TikTok specifically, is the most ascendant social media platform of the last 10 years.

Kara Swisher: Although it's flattening. Usage is flattening, just so you know. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway: Oh, globally, TikTok, 1.7 billion people. And just as a user, it's extraordinary. Its revenues are skyrocketing. I mean, it might be flattening from a usage standpoint because almost everybody's on it in the U.S. But my point is, if you compare it on any metric to the valuation that its best analog Meta gets, it's extraordinarily cheap. Now, why is it cheap? Because of the cloud of overhang of uncertainty around a possible ban. Once that is removed, once it is quote-unquote banned slash regulated, and they figure out an accommodation with the U.S., which they will, you're going to see the shares and the value of ByteDance skyrocket. So my prediction is the following. Distinct of all the clutching of our pearls, you are about to see the value of ByteDance increase dramatically.

Kara Swisher: All right. That's a good prediction. That's an excellent prediction. I think you're 100% right. Okay. Before we go, we have to say congratulations to us. We won the Best News Podcast at the iHeart Podcast Awards. Scott accepted it and showed off his guns. I don't know what that picture was about. How was that? Was that a great moment for you?

Scott Galloway: You know, Carrie, you know what was really just so impressive about it was...

Kara Swisher: Seeing me so much, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway: That, but we beat The Daily and we beat Pod Save America. Take that, Michael Barbaro! Who else did we beat? The Pod Save guys. I was shocked because, quite frankly, I think The Daily is outstanding. I think they do a fantastic job.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, we're outstanding.

Scott Galloway: But that was, look, it was really rewarding. Now, granted, I had literally three hours later done ketamine therapy, so I was especially grateful.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. We didn't discuss it. You have to talk about it very briefly. I'm sorry. We have to take more time here for a second. Maybe we should wait till... I don't know if there's a way to briefly describe it, so maybe we should do it on another show.

Scott Galloway: Okay. Next show, everybody.

Kara Swisher: I have to say, everywhere I stop, people have asked me about your ketamine therapy, because we're going to put it front and center of our next show. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, Scott, that's the show. The next one will be all about Scott. We'll be back on Tuesday, as I said, with more Pivot. Read us out.

Scott Galloway: Today's show was produced by Lauren Amon, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie and Tritot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mille Severo. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com slash pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kids, don't worry. Trust me, Uncle Scott is guaranteeing, is promising you, you're not going to lose your TikTok. Whether it's in Drive, Dropbox, Slack, or that folder called, ugh, Dropbox Dash finds it fast. Smart Search. Built for messy humans. Learn more at dropbox.com slash dash.