Maui Fires, the Hollywood Strikes, and Co-Host George Hahn

Kara Swisher: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. Expose corruption wherever we find it. And give fresh perspective on everything. From wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. It's Cara. Apologies for the audio quality. I'm jumping on pre-episode to let you know we taped this before the Trump indictment news officially dropped. The former president has now officially been indicted a fourth time and charged in Georgia with racketeering, violating oath of office and other charges in connection with his attempt to overturn the 2020 election results. And we'll discuss it in detail on Friday's episode with Don Lemon. What a perfect guest co-host with this news. Okay, that's all. Enjoy a great episode with me and George Hahn.

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and I have one of my favorite guest co-hosts for Scott Free August, George Hahn. George, say hello to the people.

George Hahn: Hello.

Kara Swisher: One of?

George Hahn: One of. Well, yeah.

Kara Swisher: Well, you're the only one who's returning from last summer. Think about that.

George Hahn: That's hot. I like that. That's hot.

Kara Swisher: Well, yeah. I know. I give you because you people like you. You're my Alan. I would say no, what are you to me?

George Hahn: I'm your gay best friend.

Kara Swisher: I know you're my gay person. What character is that? No, I'm in Barbie. Yeah, Ken. You're Ken. You're no, that's Scott. Scott is Ken. You're not as dumb as then.

George Hahn: I'm Alan. But I mean, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, you can wear Ken's clothes. And I hope you will because I heard you're going to see Scott on Scott for you, I guess.

George Hahn: Yeah, well, clothing optional.

Kara Swisher: But yeah, no, please don't do that. Please, please, because I may be there for one of the days and I do not want to see Scott naked.

George Hahn: You'll be coming to the cottage, aka the Scottage.

Kara Swisher: The Scottage. Okay. You know, I have seen you somewhat naked in Sex in the City, so I feel like I know this already. But I don't really want to see the whole package if you don't mind. It would send me back to lesbianism. It would send me back to lesbianism. Anyway, how are you doing? How is your Scott? How is your Scott for you August? How is your summer in general?

George Hahn: Summer's good. It's been swell. You know, no news that it's been super hot and donkey donk humid here in the NYC.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I'm in. I'm nearby. I'm in Park Slope. Home of home, you know, the lesbian rangers, as they say. Welcome to the city.

George Hahn: But I've been actually, Kara, I've been doing the bare minimum this summer just because I deserved it.

Kara Swisher: Why?

George Hahn: I don't know. I've just been enjoying relaxing. And when the spirit tells me to take a nap, I don't turn that spirit down.

Kara Swisher: Really? I don't know about these things. All I've been doing is children's all summer, either camps or visits or getting ready for college or getting ready for summer abroad. I mean, you're abroad. It's been a lot. We're in Park Slope, as I said, right now, we're headed to Provincetown, which usually used to be a lot of fun with two kids. And last time I was there was 20 years. I mean, I've been to Provincetown since, but was with the two small kids. So we're going to see how we're going to, I'm wearing my Provincetown t-shirt. I'm very excited. Have you been there?

George Hahn: Oh, yeah. I have a very special relationship with Provincetown. I love it. I love it.

Kara Swisher: It's a very different thing as a gay parent than a gay running around. But we may go to the boat slip to dance in any case.

George Hahn: As one should. As one should. It's a special place in that, yeah, you can kind of just do and be whatevs. And no one bats an eye. And that's magical.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's really nice. Unlike Nantucket, where you must wear the same shingle outfit everywhere you go. You're going literally to the straightest place.

George Hahn: Whitest. Whitest place. Super straight, super white.

Kara Swisher: No, listen, one of my talents is to find the gays where they don't want to be found.

George Hahn: Right. Are they in Nantucket, or are those the gays you want?

Kara Swisher: Grindr blows up in Nantucket.

George Hahn: Oh, does it?

Kara Swisher: It's all the straight dads there and stuff like that. Yeah, it's straight. All right, I'll come out and visit you.

George Hahn: I can't wait to see who pops up on my Grindr.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. I can't. Please let me know. I will. Today, we'll talk about the devastating Maui wildfires, the latest on the Hollywood strikes as writers and producers resume talks, and our favorite use of artificial intelligence this year turned Republican leaders into fierce drag queens. We'll talk to one of the co-creators of RuPublicans from Instagram account. I saved this one for you because I didn't want Scott in on this one. But first, some quick breaking news. I just posted about this. CNN has a new lineup ahead of the 2024 election. I love to mention Barbie, but they're leaning into Lady Summer, not just with Barbie, but Taylor Swift and Beyonce are doing incredibly well this summer. It's the lineup of four women and Anderson Cooper, Erin Burnett, Laura Coates, Caitlin Collins, and Abby Phillip, one of my favorite people, Abby Phillip, and Anderson. So this is their new thing in the head of it. There's a sort of putting together a very clear lineup. They haven't had one since Chris Cuomo, really, and Don Lemon left. Speaking of which, Don Lemon's coming on on Thursday. But any thoughts? What do you watch now? What do you participate in cable at all?

George Hahn: No, you and Scott have talked about this. And Scott often says, and he's not the only one, that this is about managing decline.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

George Hahn: I like NPR. I like PBS. And I'm going to say I've said it on my channels. I'll say it here. PBS, in terms of how these cable news channels should be running and what do we do, PBS has taken everyone to school. I get the live stream of my local PBS channel, and I have access to all that yummy Downton Abbey, you know, antique roadshow content, whatever. But in terms of linear television...

Kara Swisher: You watch it on an app.

George Hahn: My son watches it on YouTube, PBS. He does.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. We were talking about it. I have an Apple TV, so I watch it on my big TV, or I can watch it on my iPad or whatever.

George Hahn: But they do it right, I got to say.

Kara Swisher: Meaning they have linear with heavy duty streaming. Like CNN should be streaming.

George Hahn: Access to the whole delicious yummy library, right?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. And I can watch my PBS NewsHour, which is fantastic. Part of me feels like CNN shouldn't have gotten out of streaming with CNN+. They should have just added CNN to it. That was my initial question when they were launching it. And I said, okay, great. There's going to be Scott's show and Rex Chapman and all of that. And that's fantastic. And, you know, the Anderson Cooper wearing a sweater show. Great.

George Hahn: Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't like any of them, but go ahead.

Kara Swisher: But my one question was, do we get CNN streaming as well? Like, is there going to be a live stream? And the answer was no, but that was kind of a boner killer. It was weird because I was like, why would you have CNN Plus without CNN? That's sort of just like plus. They missed it. Missed it. I just feel like they should do that. I think I would watch it more. I watch a lot more streaming and I know the kids do put it on YouTube and everywhere else. I think they're going to have to eventually because linear, obviously, ABC is for sale. It looks like CBS might be for sale. There's a lot of changes going on. They just got rid of its president, who I know pretty well, Neeraj Kemlani. A lot of issues with his anger management, apparently. That's what the reports say.

George Hahn: A guy? No way.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I know. Shocker. It's a really different time. We'll see if they can sort of stumble through this. It's a good lineup, though. I have to say it feels a little more stable than Chris Hinton. There's four of them, which is interesting. But they seem to be working together. Moving on now to the latest in the Zuckerberg v. Musk cage match. Mark Zuckerberg is calling it, finally, The penny just dropped that maybe Elon is lying and making things up and just using this as an attention-getting ploy. The Meta CEO posted on threads, I think we can all agree, Elon isn't serious and it's time to move on. Gee, Mark, we all agreed that a long time ago, but okay, fine, whatever. It's fine if you could finally reach us. Last week, Musk claimed in a tweet that he had spoken with the prime minister of Italy and the fight would take place in an epic location in ancient Rome. The country's culture minister said the fight would not take place in Rome. I think, as I joked, it was probably Rome total landscaping. Elon says he might need surgery also for a neck and shoulder issue, which many doctors were like, that doesn't grok in any way. So the fight wasn't happening soon anyway. It was like Captain Bones purse. That was a Trump thing to do or make things up. And Mark finally obviously realized he was being used in some fashion. And he's very serious about his competition in this area in martial arts. And I don't even know why he even thought about fighting someone who is not serious about anything. and would be a disaster for him. I can't believe I'm giving Mark Zuckerberg PR advice. What do you think?

George Hahn: Oh, gosh, where do I start? You wanted it to happen. Was that correct?

Kara Swisher: I can't believe. My sons did. My sons did, sadly.

George Hahn: I honestly don't give a shit. Like, a couple of takeaways here. First of all, Casey Newton, your friend and tenant.

Kara Swisher: Former tenant.

George Hahn: Former tenant. That's right.

Kara Swisher: Oh, he's an owner now. Ooh, wow. Look at us growing up.

George Hahn: Yeah. Mentioned earlier, a couple of days ago, I think, on Threads, about how the media has to temper how it treats these proclamations from Musk.

Kara Swisher: Yes, that was a great takeaway. He is not to be taken seriously. The credibility is done.

George Hahn: Well, he really kind of don't you think?

Kara Swisher: I don't know why Mark went along for it for so long. And also, I don't even understand it. Maybe to get relevance himself. I'm not really clear why he did.

George Hahn: Another big takeaway from this is that Musk has succeeded in making Mark Zuckerberg the good guy, the grown up, the winner. Right. without even a single punch being thrown.

Kara Swisher: I just think it brings him down for even engaging with him. All of it, Kara. It's like engaging with a troll. All of it. I just find like engaging with a troll. I hate that people really wanted it to happen. It was such a like, you know, it was like, you're a bummer. I'm like, no, I'm an adult. They're leaders. They're important leaders. Step back and look at this. Yes, I am a fucking bummer. You know, like my kids don't get to eat donuts all day either. And it just, it's sad really. is. And I, you know, I had urged a lot of people around Mark to knock some sense into him, so to speak. But it just, I get that he's enthusiastic, but he should do competitions as a sport with people who are serious about it.

George Hahn: Right. I can't believe we're here. Seriously. Like we're in the middle of it and we're swimming in it. We're soaking in it. And we've kind of lost the perspective of how fucking weird this is. Like, like Trump, Musk, Sam Bankman, we've got these men and it's always men behaving badly to a degree that affects a lot of people's lives or livelihoods or whatever, but they should teach a course on how to be an asshole at scale.

Kara Swisher: Yes, they are doing that. That's exactly what they should. They are doing it. And it's really, I can't believe that, you know, look, I have my issues with Mark from a business perspective, but I was shocked that he engaged in this. It's either a midlife crisis or something that's happening to him that he feels that he wants relevancy, but he does not need it this way. He should just be quiet. You know, it's really interesting. I contrast it. Like, if you've noticed, Joe Biden's been very quiet. And the best thing Joe Biden ever does is be quiet while everybody else looks like giant assholes. And then he comes in with a, come on, man. What's with you, man? That kind of thing. Joe's sitting back and letting them dole out enough rope with which to hang themselves.

George Hahn: Yeah, I guess.

Kara Swisher: But they don't seem to ever hang themselves. I am ready for a new vaccine against this viral plague of high-profile men being horrible. What the fuck is this? Speaking of which, you mentioned Sam Bankman-Fried. He's in jail after having his bail revoked for witness tampering. It might be something that might be happening to Trump, by the way, cited where Bankman-Fried's over 100 emails and 1,000 phone calls to members of the press in the past several months. He has not called me, just so you know, but he has talked to everyone. It's really quite something. A reminder, the former FTX CEO was previously out on $250 million bail and required to stay at his parents' home near Stanford University. He'll remain in jail. He's going to be in jail in New York, I think, until his criminal trial on October 2nd deserved. Another one who's tempting it. What is this?

George Hahn: Well, he says he has a First Amendment right to defend himself, and that's what he's doing. He talks to a lot of reporters. He doesn't talk to anyone that will really give him a truly hard time at this point. Because it's great when you get these memos if you're a reporter, if you're a B reporter. It's great when you cooperate with these people. I've done it myself many times, but you're being used to shape a trial in a lot of ways. And as much as I defend the First Amendment, it's manipulative on his part, which is what he spent his life doing, is manipulating people.

Kara Swisher: Who put up the 250 mil? Do we know?

George Hahn: I think his parents.

Kara Swisher: I think it's really interesting. I'll say, you know, he'll probably complain about how he's being treated, but that's where he belongs. And speaking in which Donald Trump has been attacking judges and witnesses and the judge in D.C. is having none of it. But he may rack up a fourth criminal indictment this week. He's going to have to attack a lot of people. The Atlanta area prosecutor will go before a grand jury this week, probably Monday and Tuesday, to present results in their nearly three-year-long investigation of elected interference by the former president. Yet another case, the Fulton County District Attorney. It's funny, I think. Willis is expected to seek charges against more than a dozen people in the case. Trump attacked Willis on True Social on Sunday, calling her phony. He also attacked another judge of color and also a woman. She told him not to, and he did. The question is, will the MAGA base turn against him? Probably not, but it looks like everybody else is getting a little tired, and there's signs even among the MAGA base that they're tired of Trump. There's going to be a group that will never turn against him because the J in Donald J. Trump stands for Jesus for them. But he's exhausting. He's really exhausting.

George Hahn: I would like to think, and there's what I'd like to think, and there's what is and not always the same. But what I would like to think is that just I heard it from someone who was at the Iowa State Fair, a guy like a 51-year-old Trump supporter. He says, we have to move on. He's ready to move on. And I wonder if that kind of that voice from a Trump supporter is representative of Moore, who is just a little bit getting a little bit fatigued by this. And this guy's exhausting. And also he recognized that Trump has made so many enemies that if he were to be in office how effective can you be if all you made is enemies and no new allies which is I think where he is

Kara Swisher: I was just thinking this the other day the constant media tension about how he ahead keeps him ahead right It's just, oh, we have to keep him. And nobody else can break out, even if people want people to break out. I guess that's up to the voters and nobody else. Not that I have any money to put down, but if I had money to put down, I would bet that this is our final season of the Trump show.

George Hahn: Yeah, maybe so.

Kara Swisher: I think we're in the last season. Fingers crossed.

George Hahn: I would hope, even because there's really interesting, I just, we had Will Hurd on earlier, and obviously, you know, I interviewed Chris Christie recently. You know, you've got to really have to have other things. Vivek Ramaswani doing Eminem from Iowa was quite something to see, because that's really the audience for Eminem's hip hop, you know, there. anyway i'd be interesting to see if they put trump in jail for breaking these promises his lawyers have made for him i don't know probably not right that would be cultural too much yeah it would be really bad he would totally make a tv show out of it in any case brings up an interesting point in his last one, I think it was his last week's No Mercy, No Malice that I record.

Kara Swisher: Oh, he's pushing that he's not going to be the nominee. But the numbers, I mean, if Trump doesn't make a deal, like a plea deal, the numbers are and the odds are that he will be convicted and jailed.

George Hahn: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: This is number four. We're coming up on number four. One of them's got to stick.

George Hahn: Well, I don't know. It's having a rough year legally.

Kara Swisher: Okay, let's get to our first big story. The Maui wildfire is now the deadliest U.S. wildfire in more than a century. At least 93 people have died at the time of recording with the death toll expected to rise. Thousands have been displaced, residents stranded by major road closure. And in all the fires have caused $6 billion in damage. The fire spread a mile a minute. Warning sirens failed to go off. Fire hydrants ran dry. Hawaii Senator Mazie Hirono said she would not, quote, make any excuses for this tragedy and that the state attorney general has launched a review of the response. There's lots of issues here, one of them being that they used to have sugar cane, which was a much different crop. And since then, these invasive grasses have come in that are like tinder. They've had a drought, obviously, due to global warming and other issues. But also there's a mix of things happening here, including the end of that, of the way the landscape was. I just don't understand. I love Hawaii. I love Maui. I love every island of Hawaii. I go there. I used to go there quite a bit when I lived in California. One of the most beautiful places on earth. I've been to the town that it's just shocking to see the absolute devastation of Lahaina. I don't quite know what to say. The officials, this is obviously a fuck up on every level, including, you know, how we think about our environment and how vulnerable we all are to living in this new wherever you are, whether you're in the Midwest with the floods that happened or, you know, in Miami, whether you're in New York many years ago in Europe, it seems to be going everywhere. How did you look at this?

George Hahn: There is the heat that we've experienced this summer. There are the fires. And Kara, literally, the world is on fire. And I'm not making a metaphor there. Literally on fire. This is a record-breaking, just for people to know, this is a record-breaking heat wave. I forgot about the Canada fires.

Kara Swisher: Right, the Canada fires.

George Hahn: Literally, everything is on fire. Yep. And these increasingly hot sunbelt cities have experienced three quarters of the U.S. population growth in the past 10 years. Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs declared a state of emergency on Friday. Last month, Phoenix broke its record for consecutive 110-degree days. He kills more people each year than any other natural disaster. What's to be done here from your perspective?

Kara Swisher: I know that it sounds really stupid to some people, but I am constantly, as I evolve into what seems to be coming like a lifestyle writer with some of the things that I do to pay the rent, I am constantly thinking about ways that I can reduce my own personal carbon footprint.

George Hahn: You tweet about that, living in a city, for example. You were noting New Yorkers use less.

Kara Swisher: Well, let me just put it this way. Statistically, New Yorkers create a carbon footprint that is 71% smaller than the footprint created by an individual who lives in a suburb or beyond. And that's a function of being in a city where we walk more. We live in these multifamily homes where all the infrastructure that goes into the building, plumbing, electric, cable, it's to power and plumb and juice one structure and accommodates dozens of families as opposed to a suburban cul-de-sac where all that stuff goes into one house for one family. Do you know what I mean?

George Hahn: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: And we walk more and we're closer to resources like medical. I think about it all the time. I am not a vegan, but I'm what I would call vegan adjacent. So because meat production. Most people don't think about this kind of thing. They're not. But I do. I know you do. But the linkage between this heat and your lifestyle is very hard. I mean, occasionally messaging breaks through. Like when people shouldn't, you know, recycling was one of those moments. Like, hey, we shouldn't be using all these plastics. It still is a crisis. And the question is, there's no leadership. Is it the job of local governments? It's a job of the federal government. I have tried to say that it's a business opportunity, that climate disaster is an opportunity for green infrastructure jobs. Done a lot of interviews with people who are talking about this. But it's and there's lots of, you know, people investing right now in Silicon Valley in fusion and nuclear in all kinds. There's been never been more green infrastructure and green tech stuff happening than now. I keep wanting to appeal to people's greed over the issue. And the fact anyone who has children wants to be thinking about this, but it's really hard to get people because it's such a slow burn. I hate to use that metaphor, but it is.

George Hahn: I think as a consumer, I often feel powerless. What can I do on an individual level? I think about constantly when I go to the store, I should bring a canvas bag, which I do. My recycling. I think about my choices, my consumption choices. Am I buying shit that isn't necessary? I ride my bicycle a lot. And these are small things, Kara. But as consumers, we can, or demanding better of the companies that create things for us.

Kara Swisher: Sure.

George Hahn: Even down to like packaging. Little things like that. It sounds stupid, but, you know, I think, you know, there are little things that we can do. And I think cumulatively, because I get laughed at a lot on social media when I'm-

Kara Swisher: Yes, I noticed that, yeah.

George Hahn: And it's a little bit, it's like, that's not really, I mean, this is massive changes in the way we live, right?

Kara Swisher: Or we just burn it all down. Like, you know, what they do is they tend to build it back where it was, whether it's Louisiana, if you remember, they're like building it back. There's that Florida disaster on the Gulf Coast, I think it's in Florida. They're back building that area that was just inundated with water. That's what people do is they're like, we're still going to live here. We're still going to do this. Now, interesting, an actor like Jason Momoa, who's from Hawaii, he recently warned tourists to stay away. People aren't going to listen necessarily, right? It's one of these slow walking into disaster thing. And, you know, I think you're right. Messaging is part of it. But I just think most people don't even think about it, you know, in terms of ever that this is going to happen to them. And then once it happens, one climate disaster after another happens now monthly. But again, I'm going to circle back to what we as individuals can do. There is a consciousness that is lacking. A phrase I like to think of a lot is conscious consumption. Or you just said it. People don't think of these things. We should be thinking of these things. That's the consciousness. But the question is how does it get through to people? Is it the state and local governments? Is it restrictions? Because everyone wants to, you know, this idea is, it's called degrowth. There's a whole trend of degrowth. But why should that apply? to like countries that have been developing for years that want a better lifestyle. It is aimed at already grown societies, you know, in the United States. A lot of tech people are against this degrowth trend, which is kind of an interesting idea. I just don't think people stop moving in any way. And this is climate. It's because someone, you know, is talking about climate justice and where does it begin and where does it end. But I do think over time, this is going to be the absolute number one issue is who gets to grow and who doesn't get to grow.

George Hahn: Ride a bike. I'm just kidding. You know, I still have most of my clothes in seventh grade, just so you know.

Kara Swisher: I know you're aware of that. Yeah.

George Hahn: But one of the things I was telling on this trip, well, I was on this trip and I said, oh, let's try not to take so many clothes and stuff like that. I said, I'm not going to. And Amanda literally in the most quiet way goes, well, you do tend to wear the same three things. And I was like, which I've had since seventh grade. Like, I'm a very good user of the same clothes. You may be surprised to hear this, but I am a big advocate of that. People seem to think that I have a huge wardrobe. I do not.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

George Hahn: I have a very edited wardrobe. My life is very edited. I just choose very carefully.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I just bought a shirt the other day for the first time because I had to be on Stephanie Rule's show. And I was like, I haven't bought a shirt in years.

George Hahn: You looked good. I saw it when you were plugging your book. Everlane.

Kara Swisher: Everlane. Just a simple shirt, whatever. And then I literally had no pants either. That's my problem all the time. I had to cover the pants up. No pants on the Stephanie Ruhl show. That's how I'm helping climate change. Anyway, our hearts go out to the people of Maui and across Hawaii. It is one of the most, if you've never been there, it is literally one of the most beautiful places on earth. But this is something that certainly could have been handled better by the governments. And also, they have to be thinking if they grow again about fire, anti, there's all kinds of things. you can do to fireproof. They ran out of water in the fire hydrants. They did, but there's also materials. You're going to see growth in Hawaii, one would hope, back, but that'll be done in a way that'll protect them from these inevitable natural disasters and also man-made disasters. All right, George, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, writers and producers are back at the negotiating table. How long will it be before your favorite shows start up again? And we'll speak with a friend of Pivot, Craig DeForest, a co-creator of RuPublicans.

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Kara Swisher: George, we're back. The Writers Guild and producers went back to the table last week. The WGA is considering the studio's counterproposal. The writers' strike has gone on for more than 100 days. The WGA called it a milestone of shame. Fannie Fair asked the industry sources of their guesses of when it will end. Estimates range from October to next year with writers, October 14th as a day I've been hearing, or January 15th. With writers and actors on strike, nearly all Hollywood production is shut down, although independent studios like A24 have received exemptions if they agree to SAG-AFTRA's interim terms. What do your friends say about what's happening?

George Hahn: We want a new contract. I'm a SAG member. But Scott wrote a very interesting piece a few weeks ago that we voiced on the podcast that made the rounds over in the Hollywood.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I know. I heard from a lot of people saying, your friend Scott, several of my ideas are in there, but go ahead, move along.

George Hahn: Go ahead. Of course there are characters.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, okay.

George Hahn: But basically saying that the actors and the writers and the studios are mad at the wrong entity instead of being, we should be with the studios. And the enemy here is big tech.

Kara Swisher: Oh, I wonder if you said that. Really? Where did that come from?

Kara Swisher: I don't know. There she is. Humility 101 course begins. Yes, I agree. It is big tech. But I think they're all not really helping. This interim thing has a lot of people... Let me read this. "The fake interim agreement shit allows movie actors to now work with impunity. These are one-off projects and producers can comfortably sign given the above. But as far as TV, producers aren't jumping in because the contract for TV is much more complicated. Performers here are steady earners who support families and contribute steady, robust incomes to our economy annually. And the majority of these folks could never, to be blunt, make rapid pivots to films. So they're actually striking, losing everything, while Paul Rudd and Anne Hathaway work." As I said, if these interim agreements truly are the way to move forward for us collectively, it's morally untenable that stars who have no need of income would work them while their fellow artists lose their health insurance and homes. I think that's 100% true. These exemptions are sort of telling the studios to put people in different categories.

Kara Swisher: And another person who's sort of on the other side but also is a producer was like, "The entire business is morally corrupt on both sides. These companies are flying. They have the strike activities, performances. Meanwhile, the industry is shrinking and the average workers are getting permanently hurt on all sides—writers, actors, junior executives, agents, and assistants. Meanwhile, fat cat execs, actors, and writers, the top ones, are feeling no pain." It's really an interesting situation. You don't know who you're actually fighting against at this point. I don't know. How is your mood? You're in SAG, but not in WGA, right?

George Hahn: Correct.

Kara Swisher: What side do you think? Obviously, you're going to take the side of SAG, but how do you think SAG is handling it? Be normally critical of your own side, and then tell me about the other side. I reread Scott's thing last night and the idea—I think it may be to our benefit to launch a suit against AI tech companies. Barry Diller is already sort of preemptively doing it.

George Hahn: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: Although the New York Times is not joining him as he thought they would. But I mean, there's a little bit of shooting ourselves in the foot here.

George Hahn: I just signed with a commercial agent when the strike hit, and they asked me—or before the actors joined the strike—they asked me, "Are you willing to work off-card?" Meaning, would you do non-union commercials? Because a lot of commercials are non-union these days. At the time, I said yeah. Then the actors came in and struck. My agent sent me two auditions for two commercials. It's money I can use. And I said, "You know what? I've had a change of heart. I'm watching what's happening. This does not feel right. So no, I'm not going to go off-card."

Kara Swisher: And why was that?

George Hahn: Ethically, morally, I don't feel right. It doesn't sit well in my stomach to watch friends on the picket line and then go do a non-union commercial as a member of SAG.

Kara Swisher: But what about these independent studios that cut deals with the unions? Exemptions. What does that mean?

George Hahn: I have mixed feelings about it. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it's a bad thing. It's like they're kind of setting an example: "Oh, look at us. We're still working because we're giving the actors what they're asking for." I don't totally have a huge problem with that because on face value, and I might think differently if I thought about it more, on face value, it's like they're setting an example.

Kara Swisher: Mm-hmm.

George Hahn: By their agreeing. But those agreements are not going to remain in effect once a contract is in place.

Kara Swisher: But working with more people gives the union more power, presumably, if they could make a thing. But this person I was referencing is right. It's only the stars that get this. People can't make quick pivots to other businesses, whether it's soaps or TV versus a film, which is different because most of the independent studios make films, not TV. Those are very different contracts, longer term, et cetera. It's just one of these things where you wonder where the economics are going to come down. And you're absolutely right. The tech companies can wait this stuff out. Netflix can wait this stuff out. They've all been waiting for ways to cut costs and they just got one.

George Hahn: Well, Netflix is still making things. They still have a cornucopia. I just watched *Painkiller*, which was terrific. I just watched Gal Gadot in *Heart of Stone*, which I loved. I love all those action movies.

Kara Swisher: Spy stuff.

George Hahn: Spy stuff. And I was like, there's 20 things I want to watch. The question is, when do audiences start to feel the effects? Not until they run out of new content. There's a library of stuff that's in post-production.

Kara Swisher: Right. Like, why wouldn't you, if you were Netflix, hold out? I just don't know. But at the same time, as someone who maybe this is an opportunity for me to catch up on things I never got to watch.

George Hahn: I know. *The Wire*.

Kara Swisher: Yeah.

George Hahn: You know what I mean? I never watched *The Wire*.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, but that's the problem. What are actors and writers going to do? Also over at Disney, Disney's streaming division lost $512 million last quarter and over $11 billion since 2019. In October, premium Disney Plus subscriptions bump up $3 from $11 to $14 a month. Hulu will go from $15 to $18. Bob Iger says this is to encourage users to subscribe to the cheaper ad tiers where the company actually makes more money. There are obviously rumors of Apple possibly buying Disney, which Iger sort of put off a little bit because of regulatory issues. But they are losing money. He was saying, "Be realistic." This screaming thing, except for Netflix, is very problematic for some of these companies. Not for tech companies, not for Netflix, but for these companies—the Disneys and the other traditional studios. There are all sorts of cross currents here. It also might have an effect of the cream rising at the end of this.

George Hahn: I think the heavier hitters—Netflix, Disney+, Apple TV, and HBO, whatever we're calling it—at some point, it will be economically viable. They're all going to be okay. The smaller ones, not so much.

Kara Swisher: Not so much. Even Hulu. It's so funny because someone was pointing out they're moving back to an advertising base. We're back to regular TV, because if you want to pay less, you move to their cheaper ad tiers. I do not want to move to their ad tiers. It's just an interesting time for these companies. I just think they better settle this. I just don't know how they're going to settle this because when I listen to both sides, I'm sort of like...

George Hahn: They're going to have to earn their seven-figure bonuses here.

Kara Swisher: I guess. Prove their worth.

George Hahn: I guess, but I feel it. These are the geniuses in the C-suite who are earning all this money. They are so far... Show me your fucking worth. I get it. And come up with a solution. They are so far apart.

Kara Swisher: I just feel smart people I know who are trying to settle it feel frustrated. I'm like Catwoman with a whip in the store. "You're overpaid." No, that's not going to work. It's not going to work here. I don't think consumers are particularly buying that. I understand that, but I don't think it's helping pointing that out. If it helped, I would say go for it. And I think a lot of these businesses are going to have a real problem going forward. Now, Disney—I don't think it will sell to Apple, though that would be a big purchase. From a regulatory point of view, it would never happen. It just won't. It's a swipe of the credit card for Apple.

George Hahn: "Oh, we just bought another company."

Kara Swisher: It would be a big part. It would be the right purchase for Apple, actually. But Disney just made a deal with casino company Penn Entertainment, which many look down upon. They're creating an online gambling site called ESPN Bet. They're leaning into this thing, which you never thought they would. This was sort of a surprise to me, but I get it. He needs to make money. Iger needs to make money. It was formerly the owner of Barstool Sports and lost a buttload of money on that. And it sold the brand back to David Portnoy for a dollar. It was $800 million. It just incinerated. But we have gambling in Walt Disney Corporation now. It's very strange bedfellows. I don't know. What is your date? What is your guest date for the end of the strike?

George Hahn: Just make it up.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, just make it up.

George Hahn: Oh, God. I'm not good at predicting. But I would say maybe November. And if not that, we're going to go through the holidays.

Kara Swisher: All right. Well, that's not good news. But hopefully they'll come to their senses and actually have real talks about the real situation, which, as Professor Galloway wrote from someone else, "No mercy, no malice," courtesy of Dame Kara Swisher, who has been unpaid. I'm going to start striking in a second.

Kara Swisher: Okay, let's get to our friend of Pivot. Craig DeForest is a co-creator of RuPublicans, a parody Instagram account showcasing AI-generated photos of Republicans in drag, including Ted Cruz as Cancun Barbie, Mike Pence as Miss Womb Warden Supreme, and Marco Rubio as Sister Rosie Rubio of the Sassy Sacrament, and so many more. It's been a real delight. Welcome, Craig, and thank you for your beautiful work.

Craig DeForest: Thank you so much for having me.

Kara Swisher: So talk about how the project got started, because when I saw it, I was like, this is just what I love social media for. So tell us how it happened.

Craig DeForest: It really got started in Palm Springs of all places. My husband and I live in an Airstream where we remote work and travel around for part of the year. So we were in Palm Springs, actually took an architecture bike tour.

Kara Swisher: That's the best tour.

Craig DeForest: Thank you.

Kara Swisher: Such a good time.

Craig DeForest: We heard it on your show, and then we took one.

Kara Swisher: He's so great, isn't he?

Craig DeForest: Yeah. And we were watching the news, really hearing what was going on. I think at that time, it was things in Tennessee happening around anti-drag legislation.

Kara Swisher: Right.

Craig DeForest: And I thought to myself and said to Steve, my husband, "I would love to see these GOPers in drag." And he immediately said, "RuPublicans." The idea—he's a writer and his brain just works like that. And the idea came out of that. I went online and looked, "Is anyone doing this?" And couldn't find it anywhere. I was super surprised. Steven suggested I use tools like Midjourney and ChatGPT and start looking into those. So I taught myself. The first post within 24 hours, really, from the idea to the post, is when this all happened. Two weeks later, it was like 200K.

Kara Swisher: So you didn't have any particular background in this technology?

Craig DeForest: Zero background. I'm in international education, community engagement, higher ed—like tech, but no, I don't have any idea. I taught myself.

Kara Swisher: Right. And so you, as you said, we're in a tough time for the LGBTQ+ community, including with the introduction of these drag bans, as you noted. You called your work fantasy, but how do you use it as activism? Do you consider yourself an activist, or how do you see it? It's obviously caused great delight and consternation, which is how you want it to work out. But what is it doing from that?

Craig DeForest: I love that question because I have started to see myself as an activist. And all of the people who are following along are taking action. So many of them already are activists. In three days, we raised $21,000 for the ACLU of Montana Foundation. And that was a shock. I didn't know that we could do that. That happened in like the first month or two. We're trying to call out the hypocrisy of the GOP. And I know that there are actually—I'm kind of going off on a tangent here—but like, there are people in my family who are Republicans who love this stuff, who think it's hilarious because they understand how ludicrous this all is. And it's just this huge distraction. So yeah, I want to keep calling them out. I think AI, there is a place for it in activism.

George Hahn: First of all, so nice to meet you, Craig. And now to put a name and a face with this whole thing, because I'm loving every single post. So I'm curious to know, do you run it through a thing? Like, do you describe, "I want to see Lindsey Graham"? And do you talk about what colors you'd like to see, the setting, and how many iterations before you get the right one and make sure they all have five fingers? What does it take to turn him into a drag queen?

Craig DeForest: Yes. And thanks for sharing, George. You shared our page early on, which certainly helped us grow and get the word out. So I appreciate it.

George Hahn: It's so good.

Craig DeForest: I go on to Midjourney and I put in all of what you said. So it's unique, original prompts, and I'm not inputting images. I'm saying, "This is the person I would like to see. This is how they look. This is the color scheme. Maybe it's 1990s inspired or Barbie inspired. And maybe they're feeling a certain way." Like the Rudy Garland image that really set things off.

Kara Swisher: Who has, by the way, appeared in drag in real life.

Craig DeForest: I know. Some of these folks have, and that's the craziness.

Kara Swisher: Right, right.

Craig DeForest: And one of the words in that is "mental breakdown" for the description and the prompt.

Kara Swisher: Why? Why?

Craig DeForest: Rudy. Because Rudy Giuliani always looks like he's having a breakdown.

Kara Swisher: He is a mental breakdown. Okay. And how do you decide which one to roll out next? Obviously, Lindsey Graham's an obvious one. Rudy Garland is an obvious one. And Ted Cruz is a very attractive drag queen, I would have to say. Have you gotten any pushback from anybody?

Craig DeForest: Not major. But it's funny you mentioned Ted Cruz, aka Cruella DeVille, because when we did the Ted Cruz post, he posted about it on Twitter. I don't know if you saw this. The Houston Chronicle ran a piece on it. They did an op-ed sort of thing and talked about the post. Ted Cruz, I guess, saw it. And that day he posted the images of himself as a drag queen and commented on it. He got roasted so hard.

Kara Swisher: What did he say?

Craig DeForest: I believe "green is my color" and "not whatever you used."

Kara Swisher: If he wanted to have fun with it, yeah, he could have.

Craig DeForest: No, he said, "I guess it's a slow day at the Chronicle." And then everyone just roasted him in the comments. It was amazing.

Kara Swisher: Has anyone secretly called you and said, "I look good. Thank you for that"? No?

Craig DeForest: No one has done that. I would love that. I don't think any of these bitches have a sense of humor about themselves.

Kara Swisher: Probably not. I'm trying to think. Not on the right. That's not on the right. That's the problem. I think secretly Rudy loves it. So you've said you never do a portrait of former President Donald Trump. Why is that? Is it unattractive? What?

Craig DeForest: He gets so much attention. Immediately when we started doing this, people were just, "We want to see Trump. We want to see Trump. When are you doing Trump?" Our immediate reaction in our conversations with each other was just like, "This is not happening. We're done. We're done with Trump." I know the world isn't done with him. He's still a huge figure and he could be our president again. And I just think he gets enough attention. He wears enough makeup.

Kara Swisher: He wears more makeup than a drag queen.

Craig DeForest: Yes. So he's already got it going on, I think.

Kara Swisher: Right. The hair, certainly. You're good. So you're not going to make that, even though it'd probably be the most popular, presumably.

Craig DeForest: No.

Kara Swisher: But I like this. I like this choice. All right. Okay. I respect this, that you're not going to do him. And by the way, that would really probably make my eyes burn. Okay. Now, George and I are going to open a special image you've made just for Pivot. Let me link to the image here. I'm so excited.

Craig DeForest: Oh, wow.

Kara Swisher: Oh my God. That's fantastic. Oh, good heavens. George, read the caption. I'm wearing my glasses, by the way, but go ahead.

George Hahn: Wait a minute. George, why don't you describe the photo? Explain it for people. It is Scott on a tarmac with a PJ, a plane in the background. And he is wearing from the waist up—from the waist up, it looks like he's wearing a gold lamé catsuit. Or maybe this is sequins, but it's a gold catsuit, sunglasses like aviators but with gold rims, and a skirt. There's a skirt feature over this gold lamé catsuit. And gloves, black gloves. And there's a little pink hair coming out from behind. Yeah, just a scooching hand. And cascading down the shoulders. Read the caption.

Craig DeForest: "Please welcome to the literal runway, the Lady of London and Daddy of Ibiza, Anita Scott Free August. She's wearing heels higher than your ambitions as she boards her PJ to get the hell out of Wokistan. They call her the dog. But you won't see this diva chasing tails or bending over, unless it's to pick up a fallen eyelash or her capital gains. And the only thing thicker than her contour, that portfolio, honey."

Kara Swisher: Now, come on, that's good. Hashtag. You were really good. You got that. Check out all of our socials today to see that image of Scott for yourself on Instagram and Threads. Here's two thoughts. He's going to love this. And two, you know, he stopped wearing drag because he was in a lot of drag and he got pushback from a father of a trans person who thought it was—even though he was doing it with a level of, I would say, not hatred. A trans dad was—I talked to him about it. I said, "The way you're doing it feels a little bit like taking advantage of it." Tell us why you picked these colors.

Craig DeForest: Oh, it's so good. I think it was more about the concept of being on a runway and with the private jet than picking particular colors. I don't think I had anything going for that. It was more about the scene and then it kind of spit out different options and I let the flow happen.

Kara Swisher: It's beautiful. It's really quite beautiful. Anita Scott-Free August, I like. What would you turn me and George into?

Craig DeForest: I'm thinking now, Kara, just because it was on my mind, is the bike tour. So I might put you in Palm Springs. You might be standing next to a bike in a palm tree. So I might have a palm tree theme, like you're on vacation getting some sun.

Kara Swisher: Any names come to mind?

Craig DeForest: Mia Kia.

Kara Swisher: Oh, gosh. By the way, update: the Kia is fine. It's being fixed. We'll go ahead. Move along. Oh, good. Got crushed by a tree. What about George?

Craig DeForest: George, there's so many directions you can go. George is going to be in a park. He has his good morning videos that he does on Instagram. So I think he's going to be in a New York park setting. I'm feeling like a navy blue sort of feel, like deep colors going on. And it's got to be a really, really big wig, like cascading over the top.

George Hahn: Oh, a cascading wig. Very nice.

Craig DeForest: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher: And none of this was possible like nine months ago. When we first started this, we were like, we couldn't have done this six months ago. This is a whole new world that this opened up. With all of the contempt prior to investigation with regards to AI, you have sort of shown where it can create a job, as it were, because you guys have created a little job for yourselves. Not little, it's big, and it's fantastic. You've got merch and you've got things like that. Is this going in a real monetizable direction for you?

Craig DeForest: Well, great question. I mean, if Scott was here, I might ask him, "Scott, how do I monetize this?" But no, I mean, we're not making money right now. And the main goal is—I would say more than that—to find ways to support causes and candidates. Being a sustainable thing is important and it's secondary. But right now, this is so new. And I want it to be a place where people can come to learn, get motivated, stay engaged. I was so apathetic for a while because of just the political scene. When I started this, it jump-started something in me and reignited something. And my guess is that it's done that for some people, too, who are following the page. What I'd like to be able to do is support candidates maybe on more of a local level. There are these national figures that are corrupt and doing all kinds of awful things, but we know a lot of change happens at the local level, too. So what can we do for them? How can we raise funds for organizations like the ACLU? So in terms of money, that's what I'm thinking right now.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I agree. I think one of the things is it's got a sense of humor about it that I think is much more effective than just being angry. You can feel your anger, but it's with whimsy.

Craig DeForest: I think what's attracting people to this besides the humor is a big piece, but it's this intersection of all these things that are at the tip of our tongues and top of our minds right now. It's art, it's politics, it's drag, LGBTQ issues, it's artificial intelligence, and it's at the forefront of law. We're out here sort of in a gray area, which we're aware of. But I think that's what drew a lot of people to it. It's fascinating.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we love it. Thank you, Craig. And you can and must follow—you can't listen to us anymore if you don't—follow RuPublicans at RuPublicans on Instagram. But you can find it lots of places, but start there.

Craig DeForest: And Threads.

Kara Swisher: And Threads. It's everywhere. And it's really fun and it will make you laugh and maybe think really hard about these terrible men who are doing terrible things to people who do not deserve it. Anyway, thank you so much, Craig, and we think you're wonderful.

Craig DeForest: Thank you. Appreciate it. Great to be here with you both.

Kara Swisher: Thank you. All right, George, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, George, let's hear some wins and fails. I'm going to start. The fail is these dozens of news organizations have written a letter condemning a police raid on a Kansas newspaper. The raid, believed to be prompted by a story published by a local business owner, included seizure of computers, cell phones, and documents. They actually never published the story regarding the story. Police claim they're investigating identity theft and unlawful acts concerning computers. It's a ridiculous overreach by government. And it's so confusing, but it's just a repulsive event. I can't believe it happened in this manner. And it's tragic in lots of ways. But also, I hope that all news organizations support this small newspaper in Kansas. For my win, as I said, Gal Gadot, *Heart of Stone*. She's a hottie. She's good. Love her when she's wielding a gun. She's actually really good. I know they've gotten mixed reviews, but I got to tell you, it's like that other movie with Charlize Theron, a similar thing where she was a badass. I'm blanking on the name of that.

George Hahn: *The Old Guard*.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, whatever. I love that too. A lot of lady ass-kicking is my theme for 2023. Whether it's Barbie or Gal Gadot is my new, or Taylor Swift. Lady ass-kicking is my favorite thing. Beyoncé, everybody. Anyway, that's my win. Your win and fail?

George Hahn: I'll start with my fail. My fail: too many high-profile men, men of influence, men with a responsibility, in an apparent race to out-asshole each other.

Kara Swisher: Out-asshole.

George Hahn: Sending a message to their considerable audience of young men in particular. Whether we're talking about Donald Trump, aka Schittler, Elon Musk, Sam Bankman-Fried, Ron DeSantis.

Kara Swisher: What the fuck? Right. Yes, they're not good examples of men.

George Hahn: Right. And I put a lot—not all of it, but I put a lot—on Donald Trump, who sent the evolution of men back about 70 years and made it not just acceptable to be an asshole, but desirable to many. This is bad. These are guys with power and influence and sway. And other guys who are sort of unsure of themselves, trying to figure out how to go about life and how to be a man, look at this and go, "Oh, that's the way." This is bad. This is bad behavior. And we're going in a real bad direction. So that's a fail.

Kara Swisher: As a mother of three sons, I just—and a daughter too—I just find it... I have not grown kids this way, men this way. It's a really bad... Let me just say, many men do disdain this. That's the only thing I would say.

George Hahn: I agree. You know, these are isolated but notable examples.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. My win: also on Netflix, *Painkiller*. Broderick is really good.

George Hahn: Broderick is wonderful. And Peter Berg, who directed all six episodes. Peter Berg is an actor. I remember him from that great movie with Linda Fiorentino, *The Last Seduction*, with Bill Pullman. And what he managed to do with *Painkiller*—because a lot of people are going to try to compare it to *Dopesick*, which is also fantastic—it's about the same thing, basically. However, what Peter Berg manages to do with this is take a very deadly serious, tragic, agonizing situation and manages to infuse it with some very dark comedy.

Kara Swisher: Yeah. I think one person who saw it loved it. One person said it was too much on a very serious topic and preferred *Dopesick*, which was so depressing.

George Hahn: I think Peter Berg and the cast managed to strike this very unique balance. And I loved it.

Kara Swisher: Well, I think all of these things make you want to find a Sackler and cage match them, so to speak.

George Hahn: That's a cage match I'd like to watch.

Kara Swisher: Yes, I would too. But actually, we don't believe in violence. We do not condone violence. Although we would like to slap a Sackler after seeing any of these things. Those are good ones, George. Those are really great ones. *Painkiller* and *Heart of Stone*. And again, Netflix, both of them.

George Hahn: Both Netflix.

Kara Swisher: George, as always, I really appreciate you as a person and as a guest host. And you are always welcome on all our shows. And you're a delight as a person, I just want to say. You're an inspiration for many of your friends, just so you know.

George Hahn: Kara, you just made my day.

Kara Swisher: Did I make your day? You're a wonderful man. You have such a joie de vivre and a way you go through life. And you take many—even when things are lemons, you make them gay lemonade. And it's so delicious.

George Hahn: I make Country Time.

Kara Swisher: You make Country Time. Oh, my God. Remember Country Time?

George Hahn: I sure do.

Kara Swisher: Oh, my God. So bad.

George Hahn: So bad. That's why literally when I call over one day, they'll be like, "Oh, it was the Country Time and Lucky Charms. That's what happened."

Kara Swisher: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm here to report kids still love sugar. Anyway, my son, Saul, walks around and goes, "Raisins, raisins."

George Hahn: That's my boy.

Kara Swisher: That's my boy. He got him a haircut. We got him a haircut.

George Hahn: No, he had such beautiful, long, beautiful locks.

Kara Swisher: But he now is like such a boy. Was this his first haircut?

George Hahn: Yes, it was delightful. That's a big step.

Kara Swisher: He was fine. I still remember mine. I screamed afterwards.

George Hahn: Yeah, do you?

Kara Swisher: Mr. Flanagan. He's an old friend of our family.

George Hahn: And he cut your hair?

Kara Swisher: Yep. Yeah, and I remember it. It's the same haircut to this day. Basically. Yeah. This is my last haircut of children I have. This is my last first haircut, if that makes sense. This is four of them now. And the only one that's been really bad was Louis Swisher, who was so bad that Snippety Crickets barred us for several years. Anyway, sorry, Snippety. I still feel bad 20 years later. Anyway, I'll read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Neyman, Travis Larchuk, and Taylor Griffin. And Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week with another breakdown of all things tech and business. We have a shout out to our lovely lady of London and daddy of Ibiza, Anita Scott Free August. We'll see you in Nantucket this week. Thank you, George.

George Hahn: Thank you.