The Missing January 6th Texts, Sinema’s Disruption, and Guest Sari Horwitz on the Opioid Industry

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Kara Swisher: Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and it's the start of Scott Free August, my favorite time of year and my favorite holiday. So I've decided to pick my favorite person to take his place and probably best him in about two seconds, comedian and bestselling author, Kathy Griffin. Kathy, welcome.

Kathy Griffin: I'm very glad to be filling Scott's very tiny shoes. Tiny shoes. Kara, you cannot keep track of your straight. Your straight has gone wild. He's running amok. You don't even know where he is, do you?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, I don't. I don't, actually.

Kathy Griffin: Do you even know what state he's in or country?

Kara Swisher: No, I do not. I don't know where he was. I think he was in New York for a little bit.

Kathy Griffin: Is he somewhere being sexist? I'll bet he is. I'll bet he is.

Kara Swisher: No, he is. He's moving to London. He could be anywhere. He's got a plane and, you know, he could do whatever he wants. He can just go.

Kathy Griffin: Okay, so typical. Typical.

Kara Swisher: But I'm glad to have you here. What's going on with you? Forget him. It's Scott Free August. We don't care about Scott at all. What are you doing? What is going on with you right now?

Kathy Griffin: Well, I am getting my voice back. I had lung cancer surgery and I had some...

Kara Swisher: Yes, sounds much better.

Kathy Griffin: And I'm back to working a bit, which is awesome. I got to do a couple series and a little part in a movie. And I love doing stuff like that.

Kara Swisher: Lately, your voice sounds a lot better. I'll tell you that. For people who don't know, Kathy had a voice issue.

Kathy Griffin: Oh, it does sound better. I had this injection thing in my left vocal cord. I did an event with Rosie O'Donnell, which was really fun. I did 20 minutes and then a Q&A with Rosie because I knew the audience wanted to get our hot takes. Then I'm going to do an evening at Largo with Alison Gill, Mueller She Wrote, and that's a Democratic fundraiser. I think it's Act Blue. But as far as going back on the road, I'm going to wait a bit. First of all, I still am worried about COVID. I got half a lung.

Kara Swisher: Right, that's right.

Kathy Griffin: And I am worried about gun stuff, and I'm worried about people being crazy.

Kara Swisher: Really? So talk about that. You're worried that it would happen with Dave Chappelle or the guy jumped on the stage with him? Things like that?

Kathy Griffin: I'm someone that had a lot of these incidents prior to this wave happening. Not bad. One time I had a guy almost knock me off the stage because he wanted me to sign his book. But it's still a very jarring thing when that happens. I don't feel comfortable with a lot of places. I used to play a ton of markets in Florida and Jersey. Those are my two most popular states for some reason. I don't know where I could play in Florida where there wouldn't be an incident. I might be fine, but it's weird. It feels like a bit of a gamble.

Kara Swisher: Right. So you'd only be in states like San Francisco.

Kathy Griffin: The country of San Francisco would be good. And the country of New York would be good.

Kara Swisher: The country of New York would be good.

Kathy Griffin: And that's it. But let's see if I can go to the country of Austin.

Kara Swisher: All right. Well, let me just say today we're going to be talking about the hearings. There's more missing messages from January 6th. Also, Republican senators are finding new reasons to vote no on gay marriage. And we'll speak with author Sari Horwitz about the real cause of the opioid epidemic. But first, Taylor Swift says she's not the biggest celebrity polluter. A recent report said Swift's private jet took the biggest toll on the climate among celebrities. But the report's authors are clear they can't tell if the celebrity is actually on the plane or if it's just being repositioned to another airport. Swift says that she regularly loans her jet out to other individuals. And the tracked flights aren't all hers. Talk about this because Kylie Jenner got in trouble for this. Have you flown on Taylor Swift's jet or Kylie Jenner's? I know you live next to the Kardashians.

Kathy Griffin: I have not, but I do fly private whenever I can. And I know that's a ridiculous indulgence that I never thought I would say. But I will say in her defense, let's be honest, Taylor Swift, and I've made fun of her for many years.

Kara Swisher: You have.

Kathy Griffin: She can be a little on the self-righteous. That's all I'm saying. But she's a great girl and all this other stuff. I don't really think she should... I think she's someone who gets harassed more than people realize, and I will respect her forever. Here's why. There was a case where there was a sleazy DJ and he grabbed her butt during a meet and greet. You do these meet and greets and they're tied in with the concert. Sometimes you don't know what you're getting. I love that she took that guy to court and she sat there without a lot of publicity in that courtroom and testified. I think she's great. Can you really call yourself a feminist if you're going to rail on Kylie Jenner, especially when you're letting guys that have the same money or the same whatever? That was hard for me because I like to think I can call women dirty whores and be a feminist.

Kara Swisher: Yes. Maybe that's something to think about. Look, the one guy that you introduced me to that I sort of like is Mark Cuban.

Kathy Griffin: He might be the least heinous of all of your Silicon Valley.

Kara Swisher: Okay. I mean, that's a mix.

Kathy Griffin: Honey, you got to get out of that crowd.

Kara Swisher: First of all, that crowd's going nowhere. We're going to get to that. We're going to get to heinous in a minute. So at least he seems to be doing something, but I'm just saying like, I'm sure Mark Cuban uses more jet fuel than Taylor Swift or whatever, but I don't know. I just think they're kind of reaching. I wouldn't say that's the number one reason for carbon emissions.

Kathy Griffin: Yes, I would say not, not at all.

Kara Swisher: And on that note, Elon Musk, who cannot be left out of anything, is planning to build his own private airport in Texas. The airport could service his Texas-based companies, but plans will require both FAA and local regulators approvals. I'll just let you go on Elon. How do you feel about Elon these days?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, he's so gross with the population stuff. When I saw him at Code, which is an amazing festival of thinkers.

Kara Swisher: Yes, you're invited this year. It's in September. There's your commercial.

Kathy Griffin: Okay. Thank you. I have to say, I was really blown away by hearing him talk. I've heard him talk in person twice. The stuff he says that I think is so provably false is just bizarre. But the bros that had questions, he would say stuff that I thought was horrifying. He's building that movie, The Biosphere with Pauly Shore. He's basically Pauly Shore. He's building the biosphere on Mars. Nobody wants to go to Mars. Here's one problem that nobody asked him about. What about the no oxygen? I'm just wondering how it's going to go in the no oxygen and your crappy smelly bubble. He has plans. And it's only rich people can go there and only people that want to be with other people who I assume would give their money to Elon Musk at this point. I don't think even Grimes is going to go. And if she doesn't go, I'm not going to go.

Kara Swisher: Okay. Let me ask you a question. What do you think about him buying Twitter? Seriously? How did you feel when he was up for buying Twitter, but now apparently he's not?

Kathy Griffin: I mean, we're all Lucy with the football. I'm just a civilian, so I'm learning about the law parts. I think it's fascinating the case is already at trial. They already had a big hearing, and then the trial is as soon as October. In the chancery, which I think is... I have to learn more about the chancery. But it makes me sad because I know this is so simplistic and silly, but I'm one of those dumb Americans that walks around going, man, the stuff he could do. The stuff he could do, even as an immigrant. But when you're rolling with Kanye and Joe Rogan, I don't know if you can even really talk to those guys anymore. I was talking to Judd Apatow and I said, because I haven't seen Joe Rogan in years. I said to Judd, if I ran into Joe, I haven't seen him probably 15 years. I could probably have a conversation.

Kara Swisher: You were on a show, correct? You were on a show together.

Kathy Griffin: No, no. That was a girl named Vicki Lewis. He was on a show called News Radio.

Kara Swisher: Oh, News Radio. Okay.

Kathy Griffin: When I was on Suddenly Susan. I knew him because I knew that show so well. I was friends with Phil Hartman and Andy Dick and David Foley. There was some cross-pollination. It's the Roganization of America that I now am more worried about than Trumpism. That's one of the things that when I think about someone like Elon Musk, I'm blown away that he doesn't consider himself a fascist when he says blindly fascistic things. It's just one of those sad things because I think of growing up and all these immigrants who came here and made our country better. And then we gave them awards. That's why I brought up Cuban, for him to be doing the prescription drug thing is what billionaires should do.

Kara Swisher: All right, what would you have Elon do? If you had Elon money, what would you do?

Kathy Griffin: Oh my gosh. With tech stuff, you have to start with environment. I know nothing about that, but the guy that sort of monetized the electric car in a way that had never been done, after that was an industry that was put out by the auto industry so famously 25, 30 years ago, he could have made such a bigger footprint with that. It's a shame that Teslas are considered like a libtard, elite electric car. He could have made all that stuff more affordable and still been a gazillionaire.

Kara Swisher: I guess the part that frustrates you is all the things he could do, like a prescription drug initiative, like Cuban's doing, and it would barely even make a dent. You look at all the stuff Oprah did all those years. It's a big part of being able to stomach these people that have millions of dollars. Let me just say one man using his celebrity for good, Jon Stewart, laid into Republican senators who voted against the veterans health care bill. Here's what he said.

Jon Stewart [clip]: I'm used to the hypocrisy. Christina Kine will tell you from BFW. She sat in an office with Mitch McConnell and a war veteran from Kentucky, and he looked that man in the eyes and he said, "We'll get it done." And he lied to him because Mitch McConnell yesterday flipped.

Kara Swisher: So what do you think about Jon Stewart on the warpath? That video he did against Ted Cruz was brilliant. The PAC Act would fund health care for vets exposed to toxins in burn pits. What do you think about what he's doing?

Kathy Griffin: I think it is so fantastic. It is such a shame that more folks don't do it because the thing that John has going for him that I admire, I'm jealous of, is John also has an amazing infrastructure. When John wants to go to Capitol Hill, he's got his years of working with these guys. He's got a team from his television show for years, and he's so good at making things happen. But what's key is that he turns out to be such an excellent ambassador. He's gotten so good at this stuff. Everything from the humor of the famous picture where he sees Mitch McConnell and he's kind of laughing because he looks like a turtle, to sitting down and giving it to the House and Senate as they should have to take it because it's very frustrating as a Democrat to hear the Republicans get away with acting like they care about veterans. I'm someone who actually walked the walk. I performed in Afghanistan and in Iraq. It's amazing to think you can look out at these men and women who are like kids. You go over there and you're like, oh my God, everybody's 18. How would you ever keep this out of a bill? It gets so nuts. That's the part I don't know how we get out of because I'm 61, but I came from a time where I don't remember even knowing what religion the president was. I knew party, but it wasn't nearly like this. I think John's a really important voice.

Kara Swisher: Should he run for president? There was a run for office?

Kathy Griffin: No. No, no. He's good at this. He's an incredibly effective communicator. But I think we should go back to the business of being with actual politicians because I think a politician is a worthy endeavor. My dad was a precinct captain, he did it for free. All these levels that we're now burning to the ground with school boards and local mayors and especially election officials, all the years that we've made fun of all politicians is now that we're seeing the effect of it. Politics is a worthy living. Nobody gets rich off it.

Kara Swisher: Well, they do. Some of them do. Mitch McConnell has a lot of money. They all seem to do, including Nancy Pelosi. They're all pretty wealthy doing their jobs.

Kathy Griffin: I know. That part's not good.

Kara Swisher: No, no, it's not. I'm very much hoping they can stop the stock trading.

Kathy Griffin: Yeah, exactly.

Kara Swisher: But speaking of someone who may not have as much money, Alex Jones has filed for bankruptcy. The filing comes as Jones is on trial for defamation. Curiously, documents reveal that Jones's online store raked in more than one hundred and sixty million dollars in three years as he pushed Sandy Hook conspiracy theories. A judge has ordered the trial to continue to a verdict despite the bankruptcy filing. What do you think about this?

Kathy Griffin: I was actually watching a live feed of the trial. It is shocking because he didn't show up. He said he had some medical condition, but then he did his YouTube shows where he talks about beet juice. I thought that was a joke, but these people that are high up in MAGA world, they're hawking beet juice and fitness stuff. You're going to look at Alex Jones for fitness advice? Then he showed up the second day with four bodyguards. You got these Sandy Hook families there. And then he stormed out of the courtroom the first day he was there. Now he's testifying. It's heartbreaking. Today we heard from two of the parents, devastating testimony. I feel like these days the court system is being exposed for what it is. I know the parent company for InfoWars has declared bankruptcy, but who knows where he's stocking his personal wealth. I feel like these guys always have a way of stocking personal wealth. This is one of those things where if this doesn't take him down, what possibly could?

Kara Swisher: Well, it's sort of like Trump, right, in a lot of ways. I did an interview with Len Posner, who was the parent of Noah who died there. It was astonishing what he and his family were going through, including how the online companies allowed all kinds of hoax sites to proliferate. The only way they could beat them was through copyright, not because it was wrong or anything else. They had a very hard time taking down Alex Jones. I harangued them about Alex Jones for a very long time before they took it down. They felt like he had free speech. I was like, well, yeah, but these families are undergoing enormous strain because of what happened already. To have this guy selling vitamins on top of their children's death was just repulsive. It's astonishing that he's still walking around free. That's the part that really drives you crazy. Given all the damage he's done to our country and everywhere. None of these folks are done. Not Roger Stone, not Manafort. Manafort has a book coming out.

Kathy Griffin: Paul Manafort. Absolutely.

Kara Swisher: And Trump himself. How are you feeling about Trump these days?

Kathy Griffin: You know that I did a gig one time at Bedminster with Trump for The Apprentice. It was for a challenge. I wasn't a contestant. He called me and he gave me 50 grand to come roast him at Bedminster, which is ironic. He said, "I want you to roast me. Don't be too tough on the hair, but I want you to roast me." He kind of forgot about that later on when I took a certain photo.

Kara Swisher: What did you say? What was your roast?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, he was fine with it there. But later on when he was president, he was like, "How dare she? She's damaging my children to have to see this picture." On The Apprentice, he was a completely different person. What I try to tell my friends who are mad at me because I didn't cut his head off sooner, I'm like, no, all those years at NBC Universal, he was just this big, sweaty, smelly buffoon. Everybody knew he was a has-been. Everybody knew that he was certainly not this billionaire, much less maybe even multimillionaire. I never talked politics with him. I didn't know the racial stuff with him. The women's stuff was like, I just knew Melania was ridiculous. The daughter's horrible. She's really dumb. And Ivana, who's buried there. Can you imagine? What did she take that was worth it? Why would she just come out against him? How much money? I don't know what her deal was up until the end.

Kara Swisher: I know. But she was kooky to the end, Ivana. And she's still helping him out with taxes. So let me ask you a question, but how do you feel about him now? Do you think he's coming back? Are you worried about it? Obviously he ruined your life in many ways, that picture.

Kathy Griffin: Yeah, he had a direct impact on my life for sure. There's a part of me that looks at him and he really does look so unhealthy. I almost can't imagine him making it any much longer, but we've been wrong about that before. He does seem to have the Griffin quality of I'll never die. Just so you know, my family lives to be 100. So sorry, everybody. I am very curious to see what happens with DeSantis because I can't imagine him actually being cool with DeSantis running. I doubt DeSantis will be the running mate, which unfortunately would probably be very successful for both of them. I am definitely one of those people in the camp of I'm getting less worried about Trump and more worried about everything from DeSantis to all the local electors, all the attorneys general that are going to slip in.

Kara Swisher: Do you think Trump is a has-been now again or not?

Kathy Griffin: I think he's going back on the D-list, which is sort of funny. I definitely think he's feeling it because his people are actually starting to get real live indictments. He's definitely scared about Fulton County, but he's probably pretty scared about the stuff in Florida too with Joel Greenberg and Matt Gaetz and possibly DeSantis. What I find the most threatening about him is the same thing I find about a bunch of them, which is just how they've mastered drilling down to the local level and getting people on school boards, city councils, local mayors, and then big city mayors, and then real-life senators that make a difference. Someday we'll find out what's actually going on with Sinema and Manchin, because they're just Republicans now. We need to stop acting like we have the... we don't really have the Senate, Kara. We don't.

Kara Swisher: No, no. But maybe we will. Anyway, let me ask you a final question. Are the MAGA people still in touch with you? Are the repercussions still happening from that photograph of Trump that you did? Or is that past you now?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, yes. There's one guy came to my house a couple of weeks ago. He's this guy that made this really crazy gold statue of Trump where Trump looks like a dwarf. He brings it to CPAC and all this other stuff.

Kara Swisher: Oh, that one, yeah.

Kathy Griffin: So that guy just showed up at my house. Not with the statue. No, but he brought me a big painting. I think because he's gay, he still wants to draw me.

Kara Swisher: He drew a picture of you?

Kathy Griffin: Yes.

Kara Swisher: And found you?

Kathy Griffin: Yes.

Kara Swisher: And gave it to you?

Kathy Griffin: He left it here, but my husband just kept saying she doesn't live here.

Kara Swisher: Oh. All right. Let's get to our first big story. There's a growing mystery around missing texts from January 6th. The Secret Service now blames iMessage for those missing records, in other words, Apple, and says it might stop using that service. The reports say that text messages from two key officials in the Trump government are also missing. The Department of Homeland Security says that it lost the text of acting Secretary Chad Wolf and his acting deputy secretary, Ken Cuccinelli, in the period leading up to January 6th. Interesting. Wolf says he turned over all records to DHS when he left the job in January. I know you're not a cybersecurity expert, and most people think this is ridiculous. But does any of this make sense? And what is your assessment of it?

Kathy Griffin: Well, I'm not a cybersecurity expert, but I do have experience with the U.S. Secret Service because they were the ones that did the investigation. They worked with the U.S. Attorney's Office in tandem, and they were considering charging me with conspiracy to assassinate the President of the United States. So they didn't lose any of mine. I don't know what to tell you. I had to produce everything. They were not taking any "oh well I used Snapchat the wrong way so now it's gone forever." I am just once again blown away. I was so scared I wasn't going to screw up this investigation and say "oh I lost some text, wink." So this is just a shocker. This is one time I wish I was a cybersecurity expert.

Kara Swisher: Right, right. Well, I'm a little bit of one. I've talked to a lot and I have to say they all think this is ridiculous. They think it's kind of astonishing. But can they really not find them?

Kathy Griffin: I think they can. I think they did something to them. Kara, you have to call the government. We have written about it. I've helped people write about it.

Kara Swisher: Okay, but are you a good enough hacker to find them?

Kathy Griffin: I am not, but I know hackers that are good enough to find them. My assumption is that someone will find them. I'm sure other governments have them. It feels as if it's all bullshit.

Kara Swisher: Drop a dime, bitch.

Kathy Griffin: I will. Your country needs you.

Kara Swisher: I've tried. I'm helping out all the reporters who are doing this. I will drop a dime, bitch. OK, but this by the way, this director of Secret Service announced that he'll delay his retirement as the investigation continues. He was supposed to leave the agency and take a position with Snap, a company best known for disappearing messages, which is ironic. So I don't know what to say, Kathy. I don't know. I'm sure I can prevail upon some of my tech people to find these messages. But do you feel like it's a cover-up, correct? That's what it feels like to you, given your experience with the Secret Service. Did you find them professional?

Kathy Griffin: Here's what I feel, honey. I feel you should get out the Rolodex and let's start making calls live on the air. Let's call because you probably know some of those hackers that are in prison.

Kara Swisher: Right. That's true. I do. Yes.

Kathy Griffin: Right. And you could be like Clarice Starling, where you go visit a hacker and you're all nervous. And then the hacker comes up and you make a deal to save democracy.

Kara Swisher: Do I have to do everything? I hear you. Speaking of secret conversations, Congressman Matt Gaetz told Roger Stone, your other friend, that he could expect a pardon. New footage reveals the two spoke as Stone was awaiting trial and charges of obstructing a congressional investigation. Stone was convicted and later pardoned by then President Trump, Matt Gaetz. I mean, and of course, they were caught on a hot mic that Roger Stone was taping. So talk to me about those two.

Kathy Griffin: Well, you got to love how these fools love to videotape themselves criming and then bragging and exaggerating. So when they finally go to court, they're like, "Haha, I was just trying to impress the other Nazis." They're very into impressing other Nazis, by the way. This is one of the reasons that a lot of us get worried about the Department of Justice in general. It just seems like many of these investigations have been opened and I would have been nice if Matt Gaetz could have gone down sooner so he can't go out there and do what he's doing. All these characters go out every weekend anyway and they're huge in the MAGA world. Sometimes it's D-list and 30 people show up and sometimes it's 10,000. Every weekend you got Patrick Byrne, Joe Flynn, Mike Flynn, Kari Lake and all those folks. I feel like we're at this point where we're starting to see the dam break, like Liz Cheney said. But it's now a race against the clock, considering what else could be done in the meantime.

Kara Swisher: Meaning, race against what clock? The midterm?

Kathy Griffin: The midterm elections, but also racing against just the clock until they do something else that is affecting the outcome of an election. It could be in Florida, where Stone is, or it could, and Gaetz is in Florida too. It could be some little congressperson we never heard of that's in Colorado, like Ken Buck or something. There's so many that are signed on to this kind of corruption. I'm just one of those Dems that is fearing we're never going to get ahead of preventing the next voter fraud.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, they're relentless. One of the things I say to people is this group is relentless. That's a difficult thing to fight when you're not as relentless as the group you're fighting. Although Gaetz tried to shame a teen abortion activist. She turned around and raised more than a million dollars for abortion charities. So that was good. There's ways to get yourself going, correct?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, yeah. She's fantastic. She's such a great example, kind of like Jon Stewart, of "hey, this is something that can be done." What I love about Juliana is she loves inspiring other young people and young Democrats in Texas. I love that she keeps saying, "We really are a purple state. We're just gerrymandered. Help us." Sometimes it's just that simple messaging that people finally get because they are masters of the projection style of messaging and trying to convince Dems that they're all pedophiles and they're keeping that whole pizza parlor lizard people thing going.

Kara Swisher: Groomer. Groomer. We're all groomers.

Kathy Griffin: We're all groomers. I don't know if you know that.

Kara Swisher: Yes, yes. I get a lot of groomer texts and things like that. All right, Kathy, we're going to go on a quick break. When we come back, Kristen Sinema is AWOL on the Inflation Reduction Act, and we'll speak with friend of Pivot, Sari Horwitz, about the real causes of the opioid epidemic.

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Kara Swisher: Kathy, we're back. The surprise Schumer-Manchin bill, speaking of Joe Manchin, is far from a done deal. It's still unknown if Kyrsten Sinema will support it. So what's the deal with her? You were just saying she's a Republican. She could sink the bill. She could not sink the bill. Where do we think we are?

Kathy Griffin: I mean, it's just such a shame. And let me tell you something. I feel like a sucker. Because I see her get in, I'm like, oh my gosh, there's a cool girl who's bisexual with a purple wig. Love it. The future is here. I didn't know she's like a psycho Russian asset. I mean, they have parties in Republican circles where they thank her. Yeah. Like, you know, and so that's not good.

Kathy Griffin: You know, and look, Schumer is too much of a centrist for me. And I don't think he can whip his caucus the way Nancy can. I think she's such a rock star. But I don't know if you could ever be prepared for a Manchin and Sinema. Because you know, Manchin was like a Heidi Heitkamp to me, or like one of the almost like a Chris Coons. But now he's really trying to make his stamp in.

Kathy Griffin: Yeah, they'll vote with us for certain judges and stuff, as they should. But then to hold back this type of progress in Congress, it just can't help but feel like she is a stupid idiot, ignoramus, who just wants to be like insta-famous. And that's so frustrating at this time.

Kara Swisher: There's more to it than that. FEC filing, so she's raising money from Republicans. She's someone who is not what you think she was, as you talked about. But she also likes to pretend she's a maverick, correct? I think that's the way she acts, correct?

Kathy Griffin: Yes. She's a maverick. And same thing with Manchin is, "I don't think about anything else. I try to work with everybody." Manchin said the same thing about whether he was going to support Biden even if Biden ran again. And so I think they like to consider themselves neither Republican nor Democrat, even though they ran as Democrats.

Kara Swisher: Right. Well, then they can be Jim Jeffords and they can be an independent. Or they can even be that. Remember that idiot Scott Brown?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, God, Kara, I sat next to him at a dinner one time. What an idiot. Like, seriously, this guy's seriously stupid. And he was supposed to be the swing vote for all these votes. And all he did was talk about how much he loved being a senator because he had this sweet basement apartment and a big screen, and the old ball and chain couldn't bother him. He could just watch games with the other senators. That's why he became a senator.

Kathy Griffin: So, Sinema is like, she just wants money to buy more kooky glasses. You know? She's just awful. And she's, it's so bad as a chick. I'm like, oh, you're screwed up for the rest of us. And then Manchin, he's got the daughter, he's got the conflict of interest with big oil. And look, that's what the McConnells do. So I wish we could do what they do. And I wish we could turn on them so much where we get them kicked out. But we also have to have those amazing candidates ready. So we need Jamie Harrison to get on it. And I also think everybody should campaign as hard as Beto.

Kara Swisher: You think he will win this time? Most people don't.

Kathy Griffin: He's amazing. He's an amazing campaigner.

Kara Swisher: I know, but most people think Greg Abbott is doing rather well. Same thing in Georgia against Stacey Abrams. Kemp is doing, Brian Kemp is doing really well. Not in Florida with Dr. Oz, of course. Please feel free to make a comment about Dr. Oz.

Kathy Griffin: Oh, okay. Well, first of all, it's Pennsylvania, but I was on the Dr. Oz show one time and I just thought it was funny that he was douchey.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, why? Why were you on it?

Kathy Griffin: Oh, it was, honey, I was trying to sell a book and God knows I would have done like a snuff film.

Kara Swisher: Well, you can only do one. That's the thing about snuff films. It's a little dark for this show. Sorry.

Kathy Griffin: Anyway, yeah, so I was on and he had to think about like, he wanted to do a thing about diets. And I was like, well, I, you know, when I'm on the road a lot, I kind of have to almost eat like an athlete. And then I like made my pre-show meal. And it was just funny. He did like, he like rolled his eyes the whole time. And, you know, the audience kind of takes their cue from like the host. But I'm so D-list that the whole time I'm thinking like, I can't screw this up because I don't want to piss off like, whoever owns his show, like Sony or King World or all those behemoths. And so I just remember it was one of those gigs where I was like smiling and I'm in a tight dress and hair and makeup and high heels and trying to plug my book and my concert tour. And it was just one of those, like, I walked out of there like, oh, that didn't sell any tickets.

Kathy Griffin: But he's also done almost a Sinema-level turnabout. Once again, like Trump, I just knew him as like this, another guy in the syndication world. And that's a very foreign world. You have to appeal to everybody and the flyovers, the daytime ladies who are ironing and all that stuff. And they loved him for a long time because I guess we never knew he was really like this.

Kara Swisher: Like this. Well, it doesn't look like he's going to win, actually. John Fetterman seems to have him beat at this moment in time, at least.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, getting back to the Senate, Republican senators might choose payback over policy when it comes to gay marriage. At least that's the message Susan Collins sent last week. She said the GOP senators might withhold their vote on a bill that would protect gay marriage over anger at a secret deal between Chuck Schumer and Joe Manchin. She's still working to support the bill. Susan Collins, tell me, tell me what you think of this gay marriage bill. Republicans, 71 percent of Americans support gay marriage, according to a Gallup poll. That's a record high. They also support abortion rights. But here we are. What do you think about this gay marriage bill going nowhere?

Kathy Griffin: Well, first of all, I think Susan Collins is like Kyrsten Sinema's mother. Like, just think of them as like-minded mothers and daughters or something. She's just turned out to be a nightmare. Just because she and Murkowski lie. Just be a Republican who's like, oh, I'm anti-choice. You know, I'll be over there with the guys fist bumping.

Kathy Griffin: But that's why I think it's really honestly important what Jon Stewart did last week. Because Susan Collins kind of stood there on the floor and appeared to say, we're so petty, we're going to hold back this help for the vets or gay marriage. It really sounds like she's saying that. And, you know, I think we have to realize that this is now a party that wants to take away your existing rights. And I, for one, don't feel like that's sunk in with most Americans yet at all. Unfortunately, it's starting to. But I think that's what we're looking at.

Kathy Griffin: And so it's just important. Like, I don't do, like, rock the vote anymore because I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm no longer saying get out and vote. Vote blue this time. Like, that's kind of the whole message. Because they said the type of things, you know, you've got Susan Collins who has the nerve to go on the Sunday shows and say, oh, Trump learned his lesson or I'm going to give Brett Kavanaugh the benefit of the doubt.

Kara Swisher: Or Amy Coney Barrett. We know what she's getting. We know they keep having her on Sunday shows. It's a bummer.

Kathy Griffin: Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher: What would you say to her if you could interview her?

Kathy Griffin: I would say you should resign and then hopefully I would have a better candidate for people to vote for from the Democratic Party. Wow. Younger, female.

Kara Swisher: What joke would you make about Susan Collins?

Kathy Griffin: I'd probably take a joke that I'm going to credit with my friend Beth Lapidus, because I think it's the greatest abortion joke ever written. And I'd go up to Susan and I'd say, Susan, I'm so glad I ran into you. I'm just on my way to get an abortion. I'm not pregnant or anything. I just want to get one while I still can. And then I would, I don't know, probably tape it. Maybe I'd like hold the phone up like they do.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, speaking of indignities, let's bring in our friend of Pivot. Sari Horwitz is an investigative reporter for The Washington Post and co-author of *American Cartel: Inside the Battle to Bring Down the Opioid Industry*. Welcome, Sari. And for those who don't know, Sari and I worked together at The Washington Post 109 years ago. It's good to see you again.

Sari Horwitz: It's good to see you, Kara. Thanks for having me on.

Kara Swisher: So on this topic, though, boy, now I recently interviewed Patrick Radden Keefe about this issue. I got so furious about it, and this book made me more furious. So let's talk. But that was mostly about the Sacklers and Purdue Pharma. And that's where a lot of the attention has been. So talk a little bit about where the opiate blame goes, the epidemic goes. You say it's more widespread than one family. I'd love to know why.

Sari Horwitz: Right. So, Kara, this is the story people don't know about the opioid epidemic. Patrick wrote a great book on Purdue and the Sacklers. But it's so much bigger than that. So a lot of companies that we know about, Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Johnson & Johnson, were huge players in the opioid epidemic. And actually some companies I didn't really know about, like Mallinckrodt from St. Louis. And these companies together, after Purdue and the Sacklers had really faded, the government went after them, prosecuted them. These companies moved into the market and they really fueled the crisis and manufactured and shipped 100 billion pain pills, highly addictive pain pills across the country. And it was so bad that people in the Drug Enforcement Administration that we interviewed said these were like drug dealers in business suits. They were like the Mexican cartels, but instead of guns, they had lobbyists and lawyers and business suits.

Kara Swisher: So why do they have such a hard time fighting? Because they have these lobbyists or that they're bought and paid for, that the politicians are bought and paid for? Where's the real weak point in dealing with it? It's the people, the doctors continue to prescribe them. People still want them. Where is the real problem point from your point of view?

Sari Horwitz: Washington, believe it or not, Kara, is a huge player in this story. And we tell this through a DEA agent named Joe Rannazzisi. So Joe Rannazzisi is a lawyer. He's a pharmacologist. He's a longtime DEA agent for 30 years. And he was in charge of the unit that regulated and policed the drug industry. And he figured out early on that this went beyond the doctors. This went beyond the pharmacies. This went to the companies, the manufacturers, and the distributors who knew where every pill was going in America and kept shipping even though we were at the height of the opiate epidemic.

Sari Horwitz: So Joe Rannazzisi goes after the companies. He and his team start, they figure out, because they have a confidential DEA database that says where every pill goes, they start shutting down their warehouses. They start forcing them to pay millions of dollars in fines. And the companies are angry and they fight back. And so what they do is first they take the DEA to court. They lose there. So they decide, okay, we got to change the law. They hire high-priced lobbyists. And this is so interesting because some of these lobbyists actually came from the DEA. They lured them away from the DEA. And they get to members of Congress through campaign contributions and lobbyists. And they actually helped write a law that undercuts the DEA and our government, the people who were supposed to protect us from highly addictive pain pills. The companies undercut them by getting a law passed that basically defangs the DEA. It was actually the most stunning story. And Scott and I, Scott Higham and I wrote this book together. I think, Kara, you went to journalism school with him. We were stunned by the culpability of Washington in this epidemic.

Kara Swisher: Well, I love your book. And I actually am in recovery. I'm actually a little over two years clean from prescription pills. So they really took me down. A little over two years ago, I tried to take my life. I took about 100 benzos and stuff. And I am a classic case of someone that I got all my pills from doctors. And back in the day, I, you know, like when you're an actor, you get like some injuries sometimes. Like if you're on stage, you fall or whatever. So I think initially I was probably given painkillers when they would give you like 90 for a broken fingernail practically. And, you know, I think what people don't necessarily understand is I really did not fall victim to that addiction until I was honestly like 57 is when like my quote bottom was. And I probably was toying with them for like about five years prior to that.

Kathy Griffin: But I think that folks should understand that these drugs, they do seem particularly vicious because they know that a lot of people like me are thinking, well, I'm not doing drugs. So, you know, I'm definitely disappointed to hear that it's, you know, legislators I probably voted for. It's one of the reasons I'm still an Elizabeth Warren fan, because I feel like she's one of the few voices that seems to be out there. Because when I hear that like unbeknownst to me, there were forces actually changing the law so that when I was going through my recovery, I almost couldn't even like go back and figure out like how stuff happened. It's very discouraging.

Kathy Griffin: And I did feel like when I, because I would say about pill addiction, there's this expression in AA that first it's magic, then it's medicine, then it's misery. And that's to me what, that's what like those painkillers were. And it sucks because you take them for a legit reason. And, you know, then next thing you know, you're dependent on them. And it's a tragic thing. So I just get overwhelmed because it seems like this issue is so massive. I hope there's some hope in the future. Because when I read sometimes what these Congress people or senators take from a pharma company, frankly, it's nothing. It's like 25K and they'll just sell you out. Like not all these guys are getting exorbitant sums and they shouldn't be, but it's pretty discouraging. So I'm hoping we can make some progress on this issue, but it feels like Congress is fighting against me, you know, like against somebody trying to learn about this.

Sari Horwitz: I'm so sorry that you went through this and you're right. It's virtually, these pain pills are virtually heroin in a pill. And Scott and I traveled all over the country. We went to the hardest hit areas and we sat with people like you who are going through recovery, people who have lost their loved ones. Some towns we went to in Southern Ohio, West Virginia, New Hampshire, everybody in these towns knew somebody who died from an opioid addiction, who was still struggling, who went through recovery, came out and gone back on them. I mean, it was such a vicious cycle.

Sari Horwitz: And the thing that made us so, I guess, outraged was you juxtapose that pain and what you went through, Kathy, with we got a hold of thousands of internal documents from these companies. And it's so upsetting, these emails and these memos, because not only did the companies know exactly where the pills were going and where people were dying from these pain pills. But they were laughing about it. They were mocking addicts. And, you know, there's one case, a company, AmerisourceBergen, a distributor. So there's manufacturers, there's distributors, there's pharmacies. AmerisourceBergen passed around a parody. And it was to the tune of, you remember that sitcom, the Beverly Hillbillies, the 1960s sitcom, they changed the words to make fun of Appalachian pill billings. I mean, it's really, it's really sick. And they passed that around.

Sari Horwitz: And can I just read you one email from a company in St. Louis? This is Mallinckrodt. And the national salesman was a very successful guy named Victor Borelli. And he is selling to a distributor trying to get him to buy more pills. And he tells this distributor, his name is Steve Cochran, that 1,000 bottles of oxycodone 30 milligram tablets had just been shipped to his distributor. That's a lot of oxycodone. And Cochran, the distributor guy, says, "Keep them coming, flying out of here. It's like people are addicted to these things or something." Oh, wait, people are. And Borelli writes back, "Just like Doritos, keep eating, we'll make more."

Kathy Griffin: Whoa, that's sick, yeah.

Sari Horwitz: I mean, the callousness and the insensitivity.

Kara Swisher: So the Sacklers agreed to pay. The Sacklers are sort of the poster people for this kind of thing. A $6 billion settlement, which most people didn't think was a lot. There's been several billion dollar settlements. They had to give up control of their company. Where is the impact? Is it enough? What has to happen to stop that, given that it is like Doritos? All joking aside, it becomes like that. It comes, you know, indispensable, and you cannot stop taking these things. What is the solution from your perspective?

Sari Horwitz: Well, Kara, that's a really good question. So just some context to that. So 4,000 cities, towns, counties, Indian nations have sued the companies. Purdue, but also all the other ones. But there was this massive, beyond the Purdue settlement that you mentioned, there's a massive $26 billion settlement between Johnson & Johnson, three of the distributors, and these 4,000 plaintiffs. And over 18 years, that $26 billion is supposed to go to prevention, treatment, education, very important for kids.

Sari Horwitz: But, you know, when we go and talk to the families all over who are suffering, what they're really angry about, yes, there's money that's being paid. They're angry that no executive of these Fortune 500 companies has gone to jail for this crime. And they haven't even been prosecuted. No one's been prosecuted. No one's gone to jail.

Kara Swisher: It's like the banking. It's like the mortgage crisis.

Sari Horwitz: Exactly. So there are like 40,000 people in jail right now on marijuana charges, but no charges have been brought against any executive of these companies. And the families feel like that's what's got to happen to really be an example and to show that the government is serious about dealing with this crisis.

Kara Swisher: But that will not happen, correct? That is not in the cards.

Sari Horwitz: You know, it's highly unlikely. We write about in our book that the DEA tried to make several criminal cases, one against McKesson, one against Mallinckrodt, and that in the end, the government settled. They fined them, which was kind of like a traffic ticket for these companies, frankly, and no one was prosecuted.

Kathy Griffin: In my profession, if I do business with one company, they can say, after this, you can't go and do this. Well, let me give you a better example. If I'm going to be on American Idol and I'm just an unknown, you know, 17 year old or whatever, I, it's my understanding on that show that you then sign something saying, if you're a successful singer, whether you win or not, you can only work with like the label with the American Idol. And you can't, I think, go even really out on your own for like three years. And I find it so discouraging that DEA agents or whatever then go become lobbyists. And we all know why, because the money's great and all this other stuff. But is there anything we can do to at least have a cushion where somebody can't just go from the DEA to one of these big pharmaceuticals or company that facilitates all this?

Sari Horwitz: Kathy, that is a great question because that is Washington at its worst. And that happened big time during the opioid epidemic. In our book, we have this guy, Lyndon Barber, who worked at the DEA along with Joe Rannazzisi. He was one of the top lawyers. He knew how the DEA worked. He knew the weaknesses. He was lured over to the drug industry for a lot of money. Not only did Lyndon Barber, and this is all about money we're talking about, not only did he work against the DEA moving forward, but he helped write that law I was talking about that was passed by Congress, that was signed by the Obama administration. Unfortunately, no one was paying attention. And it completely undercut the DEA.

Sari Horwitz: And not only people from the DEA have done this, the Drug Enforcement Administration, people from the Justice Department, former deputy attorney general, attorneys general, have gone and worked for the industry and then they lobby. And so that's really upsetting. The people that are in government to protect us from just the kind of pills you talked about, Kathy, the kind of pills you took that hurt you and hurt so many others, they're there to protect us from dangerous narcotics. There are laws to protect us. But those people went over to the other side and worked against us. And it's stunning. And that's a big part of our book.

Kara Swisher: If you could wave a magic wand and say one thing could happen, each of you, what would it be? And Kathy, what would you like to see happen to these people who really were a victim of overprescription and the way they pull you into these things? What would each of you like to see happen? First, Sari.

Sari Horwitz: Well, so we're at a different part in history now. I've talked to you a little bit about the history of the story. But the problem is this epidemic continues to this day with fentanyl, which, you know, the company started this with prescription pills. And it led directly to fentanyl, which is our crisis now. It's pouring over. It's pouring over the border. And just to put that in context, every day, 200 people die from fentanyl. That's like a Boeing 237 jet with 200 people going down every day, every day. And if that happened, if a jet went down every day, after about the second or third, I think people would think it's a crisis.

Sari Horwitz: What needs to really happen at this moment in history is that people need to educate their kids who are in college and high school not to take a Xanax, not to take a pill that looks like oxycodone, and even this is with cocaine too, because if it has fentanyl in it, even the smallest amount, like equal to a couple flecks of salt, it could kill you instantly. And so that's what our country is facing now. Like I said, the company started with prescription pills, but it's now the Mexican cartels learn from our drug companies and they're sending fentanyl over. And some of it looks like counterfeit Mallinckrodt oxycodone. And so I think right now that the message has to be to save our kids from dying.

Kara Swisher: Wow. I agree. I talk to my kids about this all the time. Kathy, what would you want?

Kathy Griffin: Well, the fentanyl thing really scares me because I was like lucky in that I guess I sort of missed that. But I have heard, I have a very good friend who was, as I lovingly say, she was a pill girl and she really did accidentally overdose on fentanyl because she thought she was taking one of her, like a Xanax or something. So that stuff is more frightening than anybody realizes, whether you're taking it or have a loved one who knows someone who's taking stuff like that.

Kathy Griffin: I guess what I'd hope to see is the laws simply go back rapidly to being in our favor. But I would like to know who has been good in this area and who has failed us. And if there's any way to, and like we're talking about Juliana and Jon Stewart, and it would be nice to be able to publicly pressure legislators who are on our side and doing the right thing to be encouraged and those who are taking money from these companies to be discouraged. And also they should be forced to learn more about what these drugs do to their own constituents.

Sari Horwitz: Well, it's interesting because a lot of people speak out against the opioid epidemic. I would say most congressmen and senators speak out against the opioid epidemic. The question is, you know, what do they do about it? And there's not much being done right now, period. You know, in our book, we really highlight Tom Marino, who's not there anymore, but we highlight Tom Marino and Marsha Blackburn, who is there. They were the sponsors of that bill that undercut the DEA. And it's so ironic, Kara and Kathy, because their Pennsylvania and Tennessee were two really hard hit places. They were paid a lot of money by the drug industry to support that legislation.

Kara Swisher: This comes as no shock to either of us, I think. In any case, the book is *American Cartel: Inside the Battle to Bring Down the Opioid Industry*. Sari, thank you so much.

Sari Horwitz: Thank you for having me on.

Kara Swisher: Okay, Kathy, that was slightly depressing, but thank you for your personal story. I know we talked about it in our long interview, but what a, this system is gamed against people, especially when they're troubled or injured or things like that. So it's pretty sad.

Kathy Griffin: I know. It's so cruel too.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it really is. I mean, it's supposed to be the opposite.

Kathy Griffin: Exactly. It's supposed to make you feel better.

Kara Swisher: Anyway, we'll be back soon for predictions. And Kathy, I hope you have a good one.

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Kara Swisher: Okay, Kathy, let's hear some predictions from you. I would like to hear a good prediction.

Kathy Griffin: All right. I'm not the first one, but I think Trump will run again, and I think he'll pick Kristi Noem. I think that'll be his running mate because he knows she won't share the spotlight. She'll be a good Gilead wife. And she's just pretty much as crazy as he is. So I think that will look like a good ticket for them. And I'm actually looking forward to seeing the other Republicans emerge because I don't see how they think anything is going to be different this time. He's just going to tear them apart one after another. And he's not going to run unopposed this time. So that'll be interesting. And then, all right, you do one now.

Kara Swisher: I think, as I've said many times before, I do think the Elon Twitter thing will be settled before the hearing. I think they'll settle it and everybody will move on.

Kathy Griffin: What do you think the outcome will be?

Kara Swisher: Elon will have to pay. Elon will have to pay. I know he's countersued. He had a certain amount of time. How much? I don't know. He countersued, which is the thing you do, right? I mean, you've been involved in all kinds of lawsuits, as I know you've talked about. But I think he will settle for several billion dollars and maybe selling all the stock over time, over a time period, and not buying any more stock. And so he stays away from it. And then there'll be a couple billion dollars, five, seven billion dollars, something like that. Somewhere in that range. So I think it's not going to get to the hearing, even though he countersued this week. So I think that's still, that is what's going to happen. And again, as you know, when you're in these things, there is a settlement. I would have to say it would not be a wise choice for him to go on trial.

Kathy Griffin: Yes, not in the chancery. We should go down there. We should go to the trial together. That would be very funny. I'm in.

Kara Swisher: You like watching trials, don't you?

Kathy Griffin: I'm a big trial watcher. I love it.

Kara Swisher: You do. Yeah, you do.

Kathy Griffin: I watch a bunch of the J6 trials. Like there's actually one I got to check on today, a guy named Guy Reffitt. He's one of the higher seditious conspiracy cases. And some of these guys, they want a bench trial because there's a couple of judges like Judge McFadden that are very Trump appointees. And then when they go to a jury trial, they all lose in like three days.

Kara Swisher: Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of like, it's definitely fascinating to watch all the moving parts. Let me ask you one last question. What do you think is funny right now? Because not a lot is. What do you think is actually funny? Where are we going to find comedy again?

Kara Swisher: Yeah, it's a really challenging time. I really love that Bo Burnham special *Inside*. And I love when he's saying that one song about like, comedy is going to save the world because people keep saying that, but then they don't really want to laugh the way they used to.

Kara Swisher: And I do think that what's funny now is I think it's important that we acknowledge the depth and the craziness of what's happening around us. Because as much as a lot of things aren't just tragic, frankly, there is some comedy in the fact that we now have commonality with people that we thought we might not, like Liz Cheney.

Kathy Griffin: Yeah.

Kara Swisher: So I think I lost a lot of audience members that were Trump people, but not that those will come back, but I think there's different ways to reach out. And a lot of other people that are looking around at the world going, is it me or is it way hotter and people are crazier? That is pretty much something we can all agree on.

Kathy Griffin: People that think climate change is fake probably wouldn't come to my shows, but I don't know. Probably not.

Kara Swisher: They wouldn't come before though, Kathy.

Kathy Griffin: That's true. But I think they'll just know when it's time to go back out there. I really do. I'm just going to trust my instinct.

Kara Swisher: Okay. All right. We can't wait to see you on it because you were wonderful on stage. You're a tremendous performer. My favorite. And I miss you. I saw you once before we met in San Francisco at a crowd of gays in San Francisco at a huge venue, and it was crazy. And you were so on point. It was fantastic.

Kathy Griffin: I miss that. I want to get out there again. I love it.

Kara Swisher: We want you to get out there again. Anyway, we also want to hear from you, our listeners. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com slash pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT.

Kara Swisher: Kathy, that's the show. And thank you so much for coming on. So we'll be back on Friday for more. I'm going to read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts.

Kara Swisher: Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And Kathy, thank you again.

Kathy Griffin: Thank you, my dear.