How to Stop Procrastinating, According to the World’s Leading Expert (It’s Not What You Think)

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because today you and I have a doozy of a topic. This is something we all struggle with. What are we talking about? The big P, procrastination. That's right. We're going there.

Mel Robbins: Is procrastination a coping mechanism? How do I stop? How do I focus? How can I help someone I love who is a procrastinator? Why do I do it when I know it's not good for me? I feel like I do my best work when I'm under pressure. Is that procrastination? I'll tell you what, I want to know the answers to these questions. Don't you? I bet you do.

Mel Robbins: So I brought in the best of the best, Dr. Joseph Ferrari. I can tell you right now, this professor is fast like a Ferrari. He has got one hell of a personality, and I got to be honest with you, when I thought about the world's leading expert on procrastination? I did not think about the word personality, but boy, oh boy, does he have a big one. And he's also warned me that once he gets going, he revs that engine up and he just can't stop.

Mel Robbins: So who is Dr. Joseph Ferrari? He's a renowned psychologist and professor of psychology at DePaul University. He's an international researcher, author of seven bestselling books on this topic, and he is here to get you moving forward. Dr. Joseph Ferrari is here to cut through the crap and deliver you the truth. He's going to tell you that you can unlearn it and he's going to give you tools that you can start using today to stop procrastinating and to actually overcome it for good.

Mel Robbins: Why? Because you don't have to live the rest of your life doing this to yourself. You can stop hating yourself for never following through and you can start doing your best work. There is a solution to procrastination and our guest today is going to teach it to you. This episode will enlighten, inform, and inspire you to change once and for all. And yes, this is the biggest takeaway regarding the science. Change is possible. So let's not procrastinate on jumping into this any further. We're going to just let it rip. Please help me welcome Professor Joseph Ferrari to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I'm so delighted to be here.

Mel Robbins: So let's just start with the question, what is procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Okay. Procrastination is not the same as delaying. If I'm stuck on the tarmac and my plane isn't getting off and I'm four hours late for some appointment, I didn't procrastinate. That's delay. It's not the same as pondering. Pondering is to pause and to stop and think because you're actively thinking about what should I be doing? It's a misperception that procrastination is poor time management.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: What is procrastination? It's the intentional delay of a target task that is irrational and prevents you from reaching your goal. So you're purposely not doing something, and it doesn't make any sense to do that, and it's going to prevent you from reaching a goal, and people feel uncomfortable about it, and it's maladaptive.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, "Oh, there is pro-procrastination. There's a good side to procrastination." It ain't true. Everything shows that procrastination is a maladaptive lifestyle. You're missing out on life because for the procrastinator, they think the world is all about me and the world is not about me. It's about we. And if I don't do what I have to do, then you can't do what you have to do. So it's not about "Me, I don't like it. I can't do it. I find it aversive. It's unpleasant. It's too much time." Yeah, life ain't like that. So what? Life is about us getting things done.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: There's that expression: if you want something to be done, you give it to a busy person. Why? That makes no sense. Why a busy person? Because the busy person values your time and values their time and knows that there are things that have to get done. So this is not an adaptive strategy.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Let me stop there and say, I'm not shaming or condemning anybody who's a procrastinator, because I hope as we get there, I'm going to show you how procrastination is a learned tendency. And that means you can unlearn it. It's irrational. It prevents you from reaching your goal. But that's how I would define it.

Mel Robbins: So, Dr. Ferrari, you said it's the intentional delay, which made me wonder, do you have to know that you're doing it?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Oh, most procrastinators know that they do. I need to clarify something for you. Everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator. What's the difference? Thank you very much. 20% of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. And as a research psychologist, those are the people I want to study. 20%. Now, you might say, "That's all, Ferrari?" That's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism. And yet, we treat this humorously.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: "I procrastinate." Well, do you procrastinate on one task? Then you procrastinate. Or do you procrastinate on a variety of things? That makes you a procrastinator. 20% of men and women, no significant gender difference. 20% of people will not RSVP on time and wait till the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas. Or get the third bill before they pay it. You know they're going to miss your birthday and your anniversary and Christmas, and you'll get the cards later if you get anything. And they'll always have an excuse.

Mel Robbins: That's me. For them. That's me. Yeah, of course. We mean, of course.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Well, you showed up 20 minutes late.

Mel Robbins: No, I did not. The schedule was to start the pre-interview at 10 o'clock because most guests tend to be a little overwhelmed and a little nervous because of the reach of this show. We have a pre-interview process in place. I was not intentionally delaying. I'll defend myself there. I expected that I'd see you right away, but irrelevant.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: All right. But it's a good example of what we're talking about. How would someone else know that? Unless they're told. The person who shows up late says this is what's going on. And that's believable because procrastinators are very good excuse makers. They always have a reason and it's logical and it makes sense. The problem is the next time the same thing happens and the next time or in another setting. So that's what makes us suspicious after a while. And you say, "Wait a minute, it's never your fault." It's never your fault. I don't know you, so I'm not saying this is true of you. Please do not be offended. I'm trying to explain how this is a good case of what we're talking about.

Mel Robbins: Yes, I agree. So let me ask another question. How do you know if, in fact, you are a chronic procrastinator, that you're part of that 20%? What are some of the signs so that somebody can go, "This is beyond just a funny thing or something that frustrates me. This is something I really need to sit up and pay attention to"?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Okay. Again, this is somebody who RSVPs, shows up late, who may show up consistently to different events, misses sporting events and concerts because they never get the ticket on time. You know they're going to be late for gifts. They drive their car on fumes because they're always late getting the gas or whatever they may need. So you notice in a variety of settings. And if you find yourself doing it at home, at school, at work, in relationships, that you're always doing this way, and if other people can get annoyed by you and tell you that you're a procrastinator, you may be a chronic procrastinator because you're doing it across time and across space.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: In science, that's what we look for, for consistency. Does it happen from day to day or time to time? And does it happen across location to location, time and space? Now, if it's only one task — I really don't like doing the dishes. I really don't like, for me, it's cutting the grass. I am dressed like I'm going to go cut the grass. So I have all these excuses. It's been raining and it looks like it's going to rain again today. But I'm not a procrastinator at all. You ask me to do something, you'll get it done. But that's something I will delay doing.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So ask yourself, do you do this in different locations at different times? Have people told you that you're delayed? And as I said, this is men and women. There's no significant gender difference. This is young and old, urban and rural, different cities and the farm areas and the rural areas. No difference. All races. There is a difference between white collar and blue collar. White collar procrastinate more.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Let me make your listeners understand, because I understand you have a lot of countries here. This is not just a U.S. thing. This is not only a Western culture because I've collected data with colleagues in Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea, Iran, and Turkey. And I'm finding 20%. So this is really global.

Mel Robbins: Now, the next question is, well, then is this genetic? Are we just human nature? Are we born this way?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: No. What? No, we're not born that way.

Mel Robbins: Oh, yeah. Some people will say, "Well, there's nothing I can do about it. That's just who I am."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: No, no. You learned to be a procrastinator.

Mel Robbins: From who?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: You can unlearn it.

Mel Robbins: Oh, from dads?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Dads? Yeah. So you learn to be a procrastinator. So you can unlearn it. That's very optimistic. That means you're not condemned this way. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. You just use a different bone and it takes them longer, but you can unlearn it. If you're born that way, if that's just who you are, then you're screwed. Then it's over. Then nothing I can do with it. And that's why, unfortunately, too much of our culture is this way. "Well, that's how they are. That's how people are." No, no. People can change. Let's be much more optimistic.

Mel Robbins: Dr. Ferrari. In my rambling. Hold on. I need to tell you something. I love you. Thank you. Don't tell my wife, but that's okay. I love you because I believe the same thing. Of course you can freaking change. Yeah, it's hard, but of course you can. What you just said made me take a deep breath because I a thousand percent fall into the category of being a chronic procrastinator. Do you mind sharing a little bit what that means to you, please, publicly?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Oh, of course. Absolutely.

Mel Robbins: So before I jump in and describe the ways in which I procrastinate, I want you as you're listening to me to be thinking about all the different ways that you know that you procrastinate in your life. But I'll go first. So let's just start with when I was a student. Let's go back to Dartmouth College and Boston College Law School. Every single paper was an all-nighter. Every test, a cram session. I was late to every class. You asked me to do something, I'll forget. Birthdays, oh my God, it's like the bane of my existence. I cannot remember a birthday or remember to send a card or to buy a gift to save my freaking life. I forget to book plane tickets. I leave things everywhere I go.

Mel Robbins: I also have dyslexia. I was diagnosed with ADHD. And so I have this story, Dr. Ferrari, that there is nothing I can do about this. And that in some ways, when I think about the creative process, that I need this burst of adrenaline. Like there's something about the last minute scramble that gets my ass going and gets my brain churning. And I don't know if that's a story. I don't know if that's a habit. I don't know what the hell it is, but it drives me crazy. It makes me mad that I'm terrible at time management. It makes me embarrassed when I'm late.

Mel Robbins: My husband calls it "Mel time." Let's say we have to be at a dinner with friends at six o'clock. The drive is 10 minutes. It is 20 minutes to six. Chris is dressed. He's already fed the dogs. He is walking toward the car. I am running around looking for my phone. I have one shoe on. I go into the bedroom and now I think I have time to make three calls and make the bed and change my clothes. And Chris literally will be sitting in the car in the driveway while I am running around the house like a lunatic trying to find things. And it never equated the last minute scramble actually with procrastinating. I equated it with poor planning, with...

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Excuse making.

Mel Robbins: Excuse making. I gotta shut up. I'll let you go on.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: No, no, no, no, no, no. It's true. Because when you stop — I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say, but keep going.

Mel Robbins: What I procrastinate on is paperwork. I miss paying bills. I lose my credit cards all the time. I'm constantly without a cord charger for my phone. My gas tank — I feel like my form of gambling is to see how far I can go. And then I'm like, "Why do I do this to myself?" And it's this constant battle.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: May I jump in now, Ms. Robbins?

Mel Robbins: Yes, you may, Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So you said quite a few things. Thank you for sharing with us all of these items. In no particular order, I've jotted down some things as you were saying them. So I want to go through them. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. What I have found is that 70% of college students will delay writing, studying, going to that mentor, doing all these things. And 70% — remember, everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator. So the college student might delay studying, reading, writing a paper, cramming at the last minute, doing all that. But if there's a free keg of beer in the dorm, they're there. If Lady Gaga is giving a concert for the first 50 people, Lizzo's in the other room, they're there. Then they're not procrastinators. They procrastinate.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: When you started off, I was saying, "OK, then she's an academic procrastinator, not a chronic procrastinator." But then you did move into other realms.

Mel Robbins: You know what, Professor Ferrari? You're right. I did move into other realms. And I hate admitting this to myself. I hate admitting it to you. But I'm afraid that I check every single box that you mentioned. And I fall into that camp of chronic procrastinators. I mean, like, I'm always late to RSVP. I lose everything. I'm always running behind schedule. But never in a million years would I have thought that I'm doing this intentionally. Because you said it was the intentional delay that is the hallmark of being a procrastinator or chronic procrastinator.

Mel Robbins: So here's where I want to go next. If you recognize that you're procrastinating or that, like me, you clearly struggle with chronic procrastination, is this just an issue of time management?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Ah, it's not going to work.

Mel Robbins: Okay, okay. Well, I'm sure you have a lot to say about why time management doesn't work. But what I want to hear next is what is going to work? And I need to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors. And Dr. Ferrari, I am not intentionally delaying. I just want to ponder what you've already taught us, that everybody procrastinates, but not everybody is a chronic procrastinator and that this is a learned behavior and there's something we can do about it. And we are going to learn exactly what to do about it when we come back. Stay with us.

[Commercial break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins and the amazing Dr. Ferrari. Thank you very much. You just make me — I did not expect to enjoy an episode about procrastination as much as I'm enjoying listening and learning from you. So Dr. Ferrari is explaining to you and me that procrastination is the intentional delay of a task and it is irrational, it's maladaptive, it prevents you and me from achieving our goals, it makes us feel terrible. Here's the good news. He's about to teach you and me what the research says about how you unlearn procrastination as a behavior.

Mel Robbins: And before we jump into that research, I want to invite you again as you're listening to this, whether you're driving a car or you're walking the dog or you're at the gym or folding laundry, I want you to think about the areas of your life where you're procrastinating or a project that you have that you may have been avoiding for quite a while. And as Dr. Ferrari starts to teach us what we can do about this, I want you to bring everything that he's saying to whatever it is that you've been avoiding that's frustrating you or the way in which procrastination is impacting you. Okay. So, Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I'm not sure if you're familiar with, maybe some of your listeners are, with a concept called meta-analysis. It's a research technique.

Mel Robbins: Yep.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Okay. And for those who are not familiar, a meta-analysis — a scientist takes previously published studies, takes all of them, enters them into a formula, and looks to see what's most effective based on these bodies of literature. Two of them have been done on interventions to deal with procrastination. The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators, is time management. What works is CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, because you need to change the procrastinator's way of thinking — cognitive — and the way they act, because it's not a question of time management. Time management — stop. It's not going to work. Change the way you think, the way you act.

Mel Robbins: How do we do that?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Well, you start with this. You read the book *Still Procrastinating*. Awesome. You start with the book, and then you go find a good PhD clinical psychologist who's cognitive behaviorally trained, and you stop the excuse making. One of the things I talk about is they're very good at the "but howevers." "Oh, yes. I was going to do that, but I could have done however." So your listener, who's a chronic, will listen to this and go, "Well, that was very interesting. That was entertaining, but in my case, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I really understand. However, for me..." You look — there's, as you know, the concept of — let me write something else down, please, if that's OK.

Mel Robbins: Sure.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: OK, so there are three myths and you touched on one of them about procrastination. And that is "I work best under pressure." You told me about that one, too. "I got to wait till the last minute." Do these procrastinators, do they work best under pressure? The short answer is no. No. So we brought them in the lab. We had them work on a series of tasks and experiments in a series of studies. They did. They had more errors. But when you ask them, "How did you do?" "I did great. I did so much better than everybody else." So you don't work best under pressure. That's one of the myths. You don't work best under pressure. You think you do. But you actually do more failure.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Thrill-seeking. And I heard ADHD and other kinds. There's only been one study ever looking at ADHD and procrastination, and I did that in the 90s. With three samples, two normal and one clinical sample of people diagnosed with ADHD, and found no relationship. On yourself, why didn't you manage your time? You can't. Indecision is a form of procrastination. It's a cognitive form. It's called decisional procrastination.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Our culture reinforces procrastination. We don't reward doing things early. We punish for being late in our culture. If I don't pay my bills on time, I get a fine. I get an extra charge on my credit card. If you're like me and my wife, in our 39 years of marriage, we pay ahead of time, all the time. I get the bill, I pay it because I just want to get rid of it. So at the end of the year, do they ever come back and say, "Thank you very much. Here's a little extra gift. Here's 2%?" No, our cultures don't reward us for doing things ahead of time. They punish us for being late.

Mel Robbins: That makes perfect sense. I've actually never thought about it that way. Do you have any other examples about how society reinforces procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Christmas shopping. Holiday season is coming up. If I wait to Christmas Eve, I get 70% off. I get 80%. Why should I shop earlier? I better wait till the last minute because look at what I'm going to get. In fact, give me a gift card and I'll go after Christmas and I'll get even more because people aren't stupid. I say, flip it, baby. I say, do it the other way around. Make that 70, 80% off Thanksgiving time. And then it gets less and less and less. And if you wait till Christmas Eve, there's a 20% surcharge.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: April 15th, taxes. Why should I pay my taxes earlier? There's no incentive. Let's just say the person has to pay. Well, I'm going to send it in on April 12th, April 14th. I'm going to do it the last minute. No, government's got it wrong. Again, reward for doing early. We have to reward for doing early, not punish. I am not in favor of punishing for being late.

Mel Robbins: That makes sense. So how do you as an individual that recognizes that you are a procrastinator apply rewarding being early to your own life?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: We can talk about that. But let me also clarify from the beginning. I'm not a clinical psychologist. And so I don't believe as a research psychologist that we should be doing street corner philosophy like this. "Tell me the magic bullet" because that isn't how life is. You need to understand the person and their dynamics. You're asking me as everybody does: "Just tell me the cure. Thank you for the causes. Thank you for the consequences. But I want the cures." Well, life isn't like that. But I'm going to respect your question in terms of asking that.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: One technique you can use comes back from the 1960s, the Premack principle. David Premack was a psychologist who found that you can use high rates of behavior to reinforce low rates of behavior. What does that mean? In other words, you can take something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. So you don't like doing the dishes. Okay. So you say to yourself, "I'm going to wash these five dishes. If I wash these five dishes, then I'm going to watch *Wheel of Fortune* for five minutes," whatever it is that you like. "If I do 10 dishes, I do 10 minutes." So you're making something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. Been around a long time. That's called the Premack principle.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Public posting. Another thing from the 60s and 70s. Very easy today. Publicly post. Research has found years ago that if you publicly post something — in those days it was a piece of paper outside your office door or something like that, so people could see it, some high traffic area — "This is what I'm going to do, this is what needs to be done" — then you're much more likely to do that than not. Today with social media, use it. Say publicly post it to your friends. "Guys, I need to do this, and this is what I do. And if I don't do it, don't let me buy the tickets to the concert. I can't come out with you Friday night to go to the bar, okay?" And hold me to that.

Mel Robbins: There's a fundamental question that is like, why do people do this? Yes. Why? Yeah, it's so maladaptive, Ferrari. I hear you now. There's these myths and it's irrational and it prevents me. And it causes pain. And it causes pain for you and others.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: And by the way, another set of studies we've done. Procrastinators don't like other procrastinators. They don't want to hang out with them. They blame them for the failures of everything.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, very interesting.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So if you're a procrastinator and you think "I'll get sympathy from other procrastinators," you're not.

Mel Robbins: I am so frigging tired. I am so tired of people thinking it's time management and just you're lazy. You're not lazy. What are the causes of procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: It's a self-handicapping strategy. Fears. I'm afraid of failure. See, if I never finish, I can never be judged. Let me explain what I'm talking about. If I take my time doing something, if I don't meet the deadline and I delay, then I can simply say, "You know, I didn't have enough time. I know this is not the best thing. This is as good as I can get it. But if I had more time, I would have done better." So lack of effort is not a positive image, but it's a better image than "I did it and it's a piece of garbage." If you put something together that's good — so people would rather have other people think that they lack effort, hence I procrastinate, than lack ability, because I can change ability the next time. I can try harder.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So there's this attribution tendency that people have. Chronic procrastinators are very concerned about what we call their social esteem. As a social psychologist, procrastinators are very concerned about protecting their social esteem. Now, you know what self-esteem is. That's how I feel about myself. Social esteem is how others feel about me. And I would rather have others think I lack effort because I want to maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Some researchers these days are calling it self-regulation failure. What does that mean? It's a new name for an old concept called delay of gratification. What these researchers are saying is that people procrastinate because they can't regulate the pleasure. They want the immediate pleasure now, and they can't delay it to the future. So they're unable to self-regulate. Well, I agree with that, but that's not the only reason.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: People tend to either choose or claim — two Cs — choose or claim handicaps in life. What does that mean? They choose to put something in their way. I was just talking to a person yesterday, and the person was saying that their teenage son loves pizza, but also is pretty good at basketball. So if he doesn't think he's going to win that night, he eats a pizza. If he does poorly, he can say, "Yeah, I lost. I shouldn't have had that pizza." See, it's not me that I didn't have the skill to show. It was the pizza. So people will choose handicaps or they claim handicaps. They'll say, "I'm shy."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I'm just saying that's what the literature says. My dissertation showed women who are procrastinators choose handicaps. So that was kind of novel. No one had shown that before. But men tend to choose. Women tend to claim. If I fail, I have an obstacle. I can discount me, we say. It's not my fault. It's that thing.

Mel Robbins: But life is interesting. I want to ask you a question, though, because you just used the quote, "choosing a handicap by saying I'm shy," which I'm sure everybody listening that feels like they're introverted or shy or has social anxiety went, "But I am. But I am." What does that mean, "I am"? Did you learn that? Is there a gene for that?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I have no idea. There's no gene for it. It's a learned tendency. So that is the way you are now. I am not dissing you. I am saying you can change. And isn't that amazing? You're not born that way. Don't tell me "that is how I am." Say "that is how I am now." I can be different. I can be better. We have 70 years, 80 if we're strong. Yeah, that's all you got. Why are you procrastinating? Leave a legacy. Make the world better. Ms. Robbins, I hope that's what you're doing here with your podcast. You're making the world a little better for those who are listening.

Mel Robbins: Thank you for acknowledging that. And that certainly is my mission here. And it's exactly what I'm trying to do with every single episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. And, you know, Dr. Ferrari, it's also what's so cool about our audience. See, as you are listening to Dr. Ferrari right now, you're driving around, you're in your car, you're on your walk. I know that you tune in because you want to improve your life. You want to change. You want to leave a legacy. So thank you for doing that. I think that's really cool that you're investing time in yourself.

Mel Robbins: And thank you, Dr. Ferrari, for helping us understand this topic of procrastination and learning how we can change. And I think this is a really good moment to also acknowledge our sponsors of the Mel Robbins Podcast, because they support this show and allow me to bring this conversation to you at zero cost. So let's hit the pause and hear a quick word from our sponsors. And I'm going to be waiting for you right after the break with two really fascinating topics that we're going to dig into next. In Dr. Ferrari's research, he writes about two different types of procrastination. He's going to dig into those. And we're also going to talk about what do you do when you live with somebody who is a chronic procrastinator? All of that when we return. Stay with us.

[Commercial break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. Thank you so much for taking time to listen to our sponsors. I'm your friend Mel Robbins. We're here with Dr. Ferrari, and we're spending the rest of the time together today focused on how we unlearn the behavior of procrastination. You now know that this is not an issue of you being lazy or defective. This is not an issue of time management. This is a learned behavior. And so, Dr. Ferrari, let's start with what are the two forms of procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: There is behavioral and cognitive. The cognitive procrastinator is the indecisive, the decisional. I called them — we called them in the field — decisional procrastinator. Why would somebody engage in decisional procrastination? Because it's beautiful. I live out here in the Western suburbs of Chicago. There's a movie theater with 31 movies. Now imagine going to the movies with an indecisive friend. What would happen? You'd walk up and they would look and they'd say, "I don't know." And you'd say, "Come on, what do you want to see?" And what did they tell you? "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know." And you go, "Come on, come on, pick one."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Now, this is a brilliant move on these people's part. Because what happens? You decide. And you decide. Now, if the movie is great when you leave, everybody's happy. But if the movie's a dud, what are they going to tell you afterwards? "That was a terrible choice. Yeah, you picked it. You made me waste $14. Why did you ever pick that? Why did we go there for a vacation? That was terrible. Why did we ever buy that car?"

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I think it sucks. Oh, well, what's the matter with that dining room table? I never wanted that kitchen set. You see, the problem with the indecisive is they let other people do it. I call it in my book, bailing them out.

Mel Robbins: All right.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: It's okay to let other people. If you want to not make a decision, you have every right not to do it. Not making a decision is a decision.

Mel Robbins: That's true.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: And therefore, shut up. In other words, you don't have the right to complain afterwards. You forfeited your rights. You gave up your ability to complain about it. If you let someone else make the decision, you've got to live with that indecisive. I'm sorry.

Mel Robbins: All right.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: You had a chance.

Mel Robbins: I think this is an area where tons of people struggle.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Oh, yeah. So the first thing is you limit the options. You don't take the indecisive to 31 movies. You take them where there's only a couple. You don't bring them to a smorgasbord buffet because they'll just stand there and go, "Oh my God, look at all the food." You go eat, okay? No, you limit the options for the indecisive. Do the math, as they say. There are pro and con lists, also not considered effective, but if you do this twist to pro and con lists, it works. You create the pros and con lists, and don't just look at which one's longer. Look at within that list, which items do you value? What's more important? The pro list may be short, but it has things that you value more than the con. And this may sound odd, but take your time. Make an informed decision. Don't stall, ponder, pause, but produce. If you want to walk on water, you've got to get out of the boat. If you want to succeed, you've got to take that risk. So what if you fail? So what?

Mel Robbins: What happens in your brain when you procrastinate? Why are you going there?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: We just said it's learned. Why are you looking for the physiological explanation? Because first of all, we don't know. And I don't mean to do that just because I'm a pompous butt. It's also the truth. Let's stop turning for the excuse that there's a brain thing going on, and therefore that's why I procrastinate. If you're going to do that, then you're not going to change. And that's okay. I mean, you have a right to live in misery if one wants to.

Mel Robbins: I think it's incredibly encouraging that it's learned because I agree with you. That means you can change it. And I also heard you loud and clear. Forget the time management crap based on the research. None of that stuff is going to work for you if this is something that you're chronically doing. And you also said very clearly, there is no quick fix. There is no top 10 tips when it comes to procrastination, because this is about the story you've told yourself, the habits that you've formed and that you avoid, avoid, avoid or seek pleasure instead of doing whatever the hell it is that you need to do.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: There is a link, but they are separate concepts. It all goes down to that failure. You see, that perfectionistic person has to believe that I do well all the time. I've got to be perfect. It could be, as I said, others imposing this to me, society imposing this to me, or it could be I'm concerned about my failures. So again, it's multidimensional. Procrastination is also concerned about the failure. And so I want to avoid it. It's an avoidance strategy that society says is okay. It all has to do with failure and that public image. I think a lot about the person listening and the ache that you live with when you can't get out of your own way.

Mel Robbins: We're in 194 countries. Most of the people listening can't afford the PhD cognitive behavioral therapy program that you're talking about. So for a person who really is in their own way, they see themselves sabotaging. What can somebody do in their own life after hearing this? What are the baby steps?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: This is what cognitive therapists would ask you to do. Start small. First of all, what you're doing is you're looking at the forest and you're missing that the forest is made up of trees. Don't miss the forest because you're focused on the trees. That's not the procrastinator's problem. It's the other way around. They see the forest. "Oh my God, this is a huge task. Holy cow, I can't get all of this done." And they forget that the forest is made up of trees. So listener, viewer, it's made up of trees. And so what if you cut down one tree at a time? Oh, that's too much for you? Then let's give me three branches. You can't do three branches? I'll take a handful of leaves. Start small, do something. And so what if you fail? What would be the worst scenario?

Mel Robbins: Let me give you some examples of things that people listening to the show... You're asking me to do the street corner, street corner therapy.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I am not.

Mel Robbins: You just told us to look at the trees. That is a concept. And I am on a mission to break down intellectual topics and research and conceptual ideas into tactical takeaways so that somebody knows what the hell you're talking about when you say—

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: You want the cures.

Mel Robbins: I don't want the cures. That's bullshit. I want just one step because I see people writing in every day, listening to conversations between PhDs or people that are talking at a level that is all academic. But when you finish listening to this podcast, Dr. Ferrari, I don't want somebody to feel worse because they don't know what a tree means in their life. And so if somebody writes in and says, "I procrastinate on working out and it's chronic," like this is one thing that really bothers me. What would a tree be in that example?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Sure. I take exception. I'm known in 40 years of teaching to take the jargon and to make it streetwise.

Mel Robbins: I think you do.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I'm taking it a step further because I don't have a PhD talk.

Mel Robbins: I don't think it is either. You don't need to get offended. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just—I am the advocate for the person listening.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Absolutely. And so am I.

Mel Robbins: I would say that person is giving us that 80%. I asked the person first, "Is this the only thing? Is working out the only thing you procrastinate on? Do you procrastinate in other areas of your life?" And if they start telling me, "Well, yeah, I know why I do that. And yeah, that's true, too. And I don't like to do that." Then I say, "Okay, now you're moving from that procrastinator to procrastinating to the procrastinator state." And that's something different. And I understand that some of you, many of you, can't afford a good professional to help you through that. I understand that. Don't look at it as time management. That's one of the takeaways I gave. But I think one of them is don't think you just have to manage your time. That's not going to work for you. It's like dieting. You'll start in the beginning, but you'll give it up. The person who doesn't exercise, can you make something you like to do reinforce that you'll exercise? I don't like working on a treadmill. So when I'm on the treadmill, I'm reading my prayers. I know it'll take me about a good 20 minutes to do that. And so I can get at least 20 minutes of exercise. Pair it with something you'd like to do. That would be my street corner answer to that one. Does that help?

Mel Robbins: Yeah, that helps a lot. You know, in my opinion, that's not street corner counseling, Dr. Ferrari. That is you taking something that's very thematic in terms of advice and giving us a very specific, actionable, relatable thing that I could do tonight in my life. And so I want to take it a step further and talk to you as you're listening to us. Think about something that you've been procrastinating on. Okay, so that means something that you're intentionally delaying. You know it's irrational that you're delaying it. You know it's going to come back to bite you. It could be paying bills or maybe it's getting holiday gifts ordered or maybe you've been wanting to update your contact list. This is a big one for me. I look at my contacts on my phone and there are so many people I haven't talked to in years. I've got coworkers from five jobs ago whose email addresses don't even work and I just constantly avoid cleaning it up, but it bothers me. So what Dr. Ferrari is saying to you and me is tonight, how about you pair the thing you've been avoiding with something you enjoy? Fold laundry in front of the TV. I could delete the old contacts while I'm sitting next to Chris tonight in front of the fire. You could order gifts tonight while you are relaxing in your bed instead of just doom scrolling on social media. You could listen to music that you love while you're cleaning out your closet. That is one way that you can use science to stop avoiding and start unlearning this behavior. And you know, I got to say one other thing. I have admitted to you that I struggle with chronic procrastination, but I have not said I have been working on this and what Dr. Ferrari is saying works. I absolutely see myself getting better. And you want to know why? Because I want to. And so from one procrastinator to another, I am going to tell you something. You will be surprised by how just chipping away at this is so effective. And you can unlearn this and get better at this faster than you think. And the other thing that I have discovered is you won't believe how much time you are wasting avoiding things. And you're going to feel more peaceful. And in fact, one of the things that I've found taking baby steps and just forcing myself to do this stuff is that I've got more time to put myself first. I've got more time to take better care of myself, which only makes me do this less and less.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: It's all part of self-care. Show care to yourself. Listener, please. You've got to make time. Take time for yourself. The next day, do a little bit more. Make love a habit of the heart. "Wow, last week I only spent two minutes on it. This week I'm up to seven minutes." Now, you could say "only seven minutes." I say, "Wow, yahoo, that's seven minutes more than you did before."

Mel Robbins: I love that. And one other thing I want to point out, Dr. Ferrari, and to you listening, is that he is now teaching you a strategy that's backed by research that we've talked about extensively on this podcast. And that is the power of celebration. Celebrating small wins. Focusing on what you're doing right. Calling it out. It is the most effective motivational force in the world. Instead of the beat down and the excuses, if you were to do what Dr. Ferrari just suggested and what you and I have talked about on tons of episodes on this podcast, you do the yahoo, you celebrate, you fold laundry for two minutes tonight, high five, yahoo. You know what else? Scientifically speaking, it's going to make you more motivated. You celebrate what you do tonight, you're going to feel motivated to do it again tomorrow night. And now you're starting to roll in a new direction. And this is so important. I want to remind you that every single episode of the Mel Robbins podcast has so many resources. We link to them. You can go to melrobbins.com to the show page. You will find everything that you need about Dr. Ferrari. You will find episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast that relate to what we're talking about. And the power of appreciation and celebration as a motivational force. I call that the high five habit. We've done episodes on it. That will be there for you as well. But that actually makes me think of something else, Dr. Ferrari. When you're procrastinating, you always have an excuse for why you're doing it. How do you know the difference between whether or not you are making an excuse or you actually have a valid reason to not do something right now?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: That is such a wonderful question. Why are you shopping now instead of later? And that was fascinating because I found two categories of these procrastinators, excuse makers. Some of them attributed to themselves. "While I'm shopping now because I can't decide on gifts, I really don't like shopping. It's really unpleasant for me." So it's my fault, self-reasons. So people will give external excuses. And so therefore, these people will give us excuses that can't be judged by others to be true or false. So that's fascinating.

Mel Robbins: You know what I found fascinating about that is that when you said the excuse is aimed at you, it's my fault. That made my heart sink because when you always aim it at yourself, I would imagine that that makes you feel even more stuck or more ashamed or more beaten down.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Yes. You know, make a change. Yes, you're absolutely right. The self-devaluing, the self-criticism, it can be paralyzing and demoralizing and it's just not right. People shouldn't be doing that. It'll take you a while, but it can happen.

Mel Robbins: And that, again, goes back to the importance of something that you had just said, Dr. Ferrari, and that is every time you catch yourself procrastinating and instead of delaying, you push yourself to take the action. You make the call. You fold the laundry. You start working on that proposal. As Dr. Ferrari said, yahoo, you celebrate the two minutes and then the seven minutes and the baby steps. Start rolling from baby steps into you doing it all the time. And next thing you know, you're not a chronic procrastinator at all. You're the kind of person that gets stuff done. And see how this all works together? You catch the excuse. You push yourself to do it. You congratulate and celebrate the fact that you did. Bada bing, bada boom. We're now moving like a Ferrari, Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I know, I love it.

Mel Robbins: You know, we've talked a lot about procrastination when we do it, but Dr. Ferrari, can you give advice to us for when we are dealing with a procrastinator or we live with or love somebody who is a chronic procrastinator?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Okay.

Mel Robbins: I'm asking on behalf of my husband who lives with a chronic procrastinator named Mel.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Is there any advice or counsel or insight that you have to give to somebody who's dealing with someone like this? I'm laughing because you've touched something personal, but it's hard to change them because they're great excuse makers. They'll always tell you, "You don't understand." They'll pull up something in the past. "This is what happened. Don't you remember? How dare you force me? I'm my own person. Don't be a therapist with me." You know, something like that. They'll throw that one in your face. So it's not easy. Do you have a wife who's a procrastinator?

Mel Robbins: I'm not allowed to say.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Okay. She's now in the other room. You're not supposed to talk about me. Oh, man.

Mel Robbins: Well, I got to thank you. I really learned a lot. And I love how you don't hold back.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: No, I do. I really do. I love your passion for this.

Mel Robbins: And listeners, this is passion. This is not rudeness. That's why I can go toe to toe with you, because I'm equally passionate about what I do. And I deeply respect your research and your expertise here. I feel a deep level of hope from your message. Knowing that this is a learned behavior, knowing that society rewards procrastination, knowing that you are completely lying to yourself with these excuses, and you are more capable than you're telling yourself. And today you learned that just because you have spent decades procrastinating does not mean you are sentenced to being a procrastinator for the rest of your life. This is not your identity. This is a behavior pattern that you learned. And this is absolutely something that you can and should change. It begins with you making a decision that you want to change. And today you have learned so much about this topic and you've also learned very specific things that you can do. Every time you catch yourself procrastinating or making the excuse, stop. Choose to do one small step forward. Pair what you've been avoiding with something that you love. Celebrate the single baby steps that you're making and wake up every single day and change one small step forward at a time. That's how you make your life a little bit better every single day. Thank you, Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Thank you. And you know, you touched on something. Life is short and I can make my life and other lives better, enriching other people's lives.

Mel Robbins: Well, thank you. I don't know about you, but after spending a little bit of time with Dr. Ferrari, I feel like I got to go do something. You know what I mean? Like no more procrastinating. But before I jump off the mic and I go tackle that pile of to-dos, I want to make sure I remind you that I love you and I believe in you. Stop listening to those stupid excuses. I've got them too. Put your head down and start to chip away at it. And the most important piece for me is the self-compassion. As you do start doing the work to change, please savor it. Be kind to yourself and cheer yourself forward. Alrighty, I'll see you in a few days. Here we go.

[The conversation continues with a more informal, behind-the-scenes tone.]

Mel Robbins: Oh my God. There he is. The one and only. I'm probably talking beyond your script. So let's come back. You mentioned you need that creative juices. I love it.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So there's, as you know, the concept of—well, let me write something else down, please, if that's okay.

Mel Robbins: Sure.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: What does that mean? I got to drink water. Do it. You know, when you have good food in your mouth, you want to savor that. I gotta keep that in my mouth so savory. So which one are they doing?

Mel Robbins: All right, should we go there?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: Yes.

Mel Robbins: I love that. Let's do it now. Say again, yes, of course.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: So I told you, once I start talking.

Mel Robbins: I love it. I do have some questions about that, though. Hold on a second. How do we apply this? Because I didn't finish my shtick. I got to figure out how to ask questions without interrupting you is what I got to do.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I know. And I told you before that I do this.

Mel Robbins: That's fine.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I don't know what you said. I'm on a roll.

Mel Robbins: I hear you. I got to ask you a question. You have to go up. I'm sorry. I'm going down this path.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I love it. Keep going.

Mel Robbins: No, I love listening to you. Keep going.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari: I don't mean to offend any of your listeners, but I have to be who I am. The—I lost my train of thought.

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.