The Exact Words You Need to Hear Today If It Feels Like Nothing’s Working

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Have you ever had one of those days where the world, it just feels like too much? Whether it's the news that's depressing, or there's just so much going on at work, or your life is so overwhelming, and you just are not sure how you're even going to get through the day.

Mel Robbins: But then all of a sudden out of nowhere, you crack open a book and you read a passage, or you hear a song playing, or you see a quote online, and it just boom, drops into your day like an anchor. It cuts right through all the noise of the world and the headlines, and it lands square in your heart. And suddenly you can't explain it, but you just feel a little bit better.

Mel Robbins: It's almost as if that passage that you read or that song that you heard was meant just for you at this moment. Your shoulders drop, you can breathe again, you feel a little better. Well, I believe that this episode is going to do exactly that for you. That it was meant to find you at this moment in your life. That it's going to cut through the noise of the world and land deep in your heart.

Mel Robbins: That's the magic of my guest today, Mark Nepo. He's the number one New York Times bestselling author of the seminal work, *The Book of Awakening*, which has changed millions of people's lives, including mine and my husband, Chris. This book is so important to me. It sits on my bedside table. I read it several days a week. And Mark's writings are so important to me. They have shown up for me time and time again, exactly when I needed them most.

Mel Robbins: So I am absolutely thrilled for him to be here for you and me. And wherever it is that you are at this exact moment, I promise you the sound of Mark's words, they are meant to find you. The rhythm, the poetry, there's something that you're about to hear that's going to touch something deep inside you. It's like being moved by a song, even if you don't know all the words yet. All you have to do is listen. And the priceless life wisdom that Mark Nepo is about to share, it'll do the rest.

[Intro music]

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. It is such an honor to be together and to spend this time with you. And if you're a new listener or you're here because someone shared this episode with you, I just want to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family.

Mel Robbins: You're about to meet a man whose words have lifted me up more times than I can count, and I guarantee he is going to do exactly the same thing for you today. Mark Nepo is the number one New York Times bestselling author of *The Book of Awakening*, which is one of my favorite books. I give it as a gift. It sits on my nightstand. I love it because it has 365 daily meditations that you can read that help you grow as a human being. Be in the moment, live with more courage, deepen your relationships, and connect more deeply with life itself.

Mel Robbins: And I'm not the only one who loves Mark's writing. My husband, Chris, has read from *The Book of Awakening* for the last 10 years, and so have millions of people around the world, because it's celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. Now, Mark has also published 25 other books, including his new bestselling book, *The Fifth Season: Creativity in the Second Half of Life*.

Mel Robbins: Mark Nepo received his PhD in English from the University of Albany, where he served for decades as a professor. But today, you and I are going to dig deep into the wisdom and the stories and the lessons from the book that has had one of the biggest impacts on my life. And I'm also thrilled that my husband, Chris, is joining me for the first time in our Boston studios to be a part of this remarkable and life-changing conversation.

Mel Robbins: It is my absolute honor to welcome the extraordinary Mark Nepo to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Mark Nepo: It's an honor to be here. I'm so appreciative. You've all made me so welcome. I'm just so looking forward to being together.

Mel Robbins: Me too. And Chris Robbins, this is your debut in the Boston studios. Thank you for being here too.

Chris Robbins: Thanks for having me in.

Mel Robbins: So Mark, I'd love to start by having you speak directly to the person who's here with us, who made the time to spend it together with you today and me and Chris and to learn from you. And I'd love to have you just speak to them and share what they could experience in their life that could be different.

Mark Nepo: Yeah. So first, thank you for being here and taking time to gather like this. I think some of the things that are so important and available to everyone is that life is always where we are. I think one of the big menacing assumptions in the modern world is that life is other than where we are. It's over there. The FOMO, fear of missing out. There is no there. There's only here. And great love and great suffering are the great teachers of this.

Mark Nepo: I think one of the things in our age right now is that so many people seem to have lost their direct connection to life. And it is so isolating, is so challenging. My job, whether it's in writing or teaching, my calling is to open a heart space that we can enter together. And in that heart space, we start to discover that we're more together than alone. I'm so happy you're here.

Mel Robbins: Oh, me too. Well, your work has had a profound impact on my life, on Chris's life, on our family's life. And I'm talking about *The Book of Awakening* that I just have to say, Chris is the one who introduced your work to our family. And so before we share some of our favorite passages, can you talk a little bit about how you discovered this book or what this book means to you or what Mark's work has meant to you in your life?

Chris Robbins: Everything. This book came to me when my heart was not open. I had gotten pretty heavy into meditation, was studying Buddhism. And somebody, we were talking about this concept of quieting the mind and meditation, and somebody said, "I just read one of these passages before I drop in." And that was sort of the beginning of me finding this book.

Chris Robbins: I think just looking back on what has been a decade plus of both reading and rereading this and sharing it profusely, it has been the source of my own awakening, if you will. And also just a reminder to your point about how nobody has the answers. I love what you said earlier. We're all just here comparing notes. And this is a book that I give away in all of the men's work that I do. It provides a light and a lens into our own humanity, my own humanity.

Mark Nepo: Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. It means a lot.

Mel Robbins: I went through a large part of my life closed off and in my head, or detached, or disassociated, or anxious, or just like the doing and the climbing of the ladder and the getting to the next thing and go, go, go, go, go, go, go. Disconnected from life itself, as you would say, in terms of this feel of it. Like there was so much of the doing and the achieving and I just thought this is what life is. And that is a form of life. And too many people get to their deathbed and realize that there could have been a different way to experience life and a different way to slow down and really truly connect with what matters. And it's right there in front of you.

Mel Robbins: And what I hope out of this conversation, because it's the thing that I've gotten out of your work, is this ability to wake up from autopilot or from the feeling that you're in a relationship that feels like roommates or that you are stuck or resigned or closed off, but you don't know how to access something else. There is something else that is possible.

Mel Robbins: If the person listening really resonates with that sense that I've lost the direct connection to life, or there's somebody in my life that I'm worried about who seems to have lost their direct connection to life. The spark's gone. They seem really stuck. You see the potential. You see the light. You're holding it out for them, but they don't see it. Or maybe the person listening doesn't feel it. What would you say to them, Mark?

Mark Nepo: I think two questions, nonjudgmental questions that I find myself asking both loved ones and students and people I'm with, especially people who are struggling, is: "What's it like to be you right now?" What's it like to be you? And the other is: "What do you care about?" And invite them to tell that story. Not even tell them they're stuck. What good does that do? Or "Cheer up." Does that ever work?

Mark Nepo: "What's it like to be you?" This came from teaching. One of the best things for me about teaching is in opening that heart space when people enter and are real. When who's the teacher moves around the room, it doesn't get better than that. In one of these stories where this question came to me, I was teaching in Charleston at the Sophia Institute, a place I love. The question I had asked was, "Can you, in pairs, share one thing you hold to be true with the other person?"

Mark Nepo: So this mother and son came up to me in the middle, and the mother spoke. She said, "Well, we're stuck." I said, "Well, what's going on?" And meanwhile, her son, who was probably 28, about six foot four, he's just got this wry smile on his face. And she says, "Well, I told Jack what was true for me, but he said that he doesn't think anything's true. So we're at an impasse."

Mark Nepo: And I didn't know I was going to say this, but because they shared, my heart said, "Well, I'm inviting you to listen to each other. So if your son moved to China, would you ask him, 'What's it like to live in China? What brought you there? Do you like living there? Do you see yourself staying there?' Well, he's told you he lives in the land where nothing is true. Can you ask him, 'What's it like to live in the land where nothing is true? What brought you there?'" And he's smiling the whole time, not saying a word. And they went back.

Mark Nepo: What happened in the retreat was there was another mother grieving that she had a son of a similar age about a month earlier who had died in a car crash. Watching this mother and son, she, a little later in the weekend, burst into tears and left the room. And we took a break and made sure she was okay. And when she came back into the room, this young man who didn't believe anything was true was the first one to run across the room and sweep her up in his arms.

Mark Nepo: At the end of the retreat, as we were saying goodbye to different people, he came up and I said, "Can I share something with you?" He said, "Sure." And I put my hand on his heart and I said, "Whatever caused you to reach out to that grieving mother, that was true. Now that you can't, you don't plan things like that." He who believed nothing was true was the teacher that weekend.

Chris Robbins: It's one of the reasons why I think some of your teachings and your writings are so profound, because you're not offering answers. And even this *Book of Awakening*, I think it doesn't lead people to what is true. It doesn't force people to ask for help. But it does invite, by way of the prompts and the reflections, it inspires people to ask those questions.

Chris Robbins: I think for a lot of the people that I sit with, particularly men who are not inclined necessarily to ask for help or "Hey, I'm going to get this done. I'm going to go it alone." I'm not sure that it's always so clear what is true or what help is required. And so I'm seeing, at least even in this conversation, that that's part of what, without me even knowing it, has spoken to me. Because it's given me the space and the presence of mind to even ask these questions of myself. Or in the case of Mel and I, just doing it together with friends and with one another. Your story of that young man speaks volumes to that.

Mark Nepo: Oh, thank you. And this is the blessing. Because for me, this is how I learn.

Mel Robbins: *The Book of Awakening* sits on both sides of our beds because we do not want to share a copy. Although I am holding Chris's copy because I forgot to bring mine. And so I'm like, "Chris, bring yours." And it is a beautiful collection of daily reflections that were born out of a very challenging time in your life when you were dealing with a cancer diagnosis. So can you talk a little bit about that period of your life and what was happening that led to this series of essays?

Mark Nepo: When I was in my early 30s, I was just finished graduate school. I was a young poet who hoped that maybe, if I worked really hard, I might write one or two poems that maybe would matter or be thought of as great. And then all of a sudden, I was stricken with a rare form of lymphoma. And everything was upended.

Mark Nepo: I was in the hospital and it was in my skull bone. It had grown to the size of a grapefruit. And when someone told me I had cancer, I walked out that door and that was the first life-changing moment. Because the door I had come in by was no longer there. Life before that appointment, there was no way back. And now I was in the new world. And in that moment, everything was difficult, fearful.

Mark Nepo: Everyone, and this is the kind of common passage that all the spiritual traditions talk about, everyone will be dropped into the depth of life at some point. And sometimes, a lot of times we talk about it because difficult, life-challenging things bring us there. But it's not just that. We're not deifying suffering. It could be wonder. It could be beauty. It could be being loved unconditionally for the first time. It could be all kinds of things. But it happened to be cancer for me.

Mark Nepo: In that journey, I had to drop under the pain, the fear, the worry. Not to run from it, but to access something larger than me. This is maybe the difference between effort and grace. The effort is to be ready so that when grace comes, you receive it. We can talk about grace very simply outside of religious connotations as the larger currents of life that we're always connected to. And if we're open to them, they will carry us.

Mark Nepo: I'd never been through anything difficult. So I was terrified. Every doctor or nurse I met, I said, "I'm Mark. Put me out." They thought "Put Me Out" was my last name. And of course, I couldn't be put out because this was my journey. In order to be ready in case I needed to go into surgery quickly, they couldn't give me anesthetic ahead of time so it wouldn't be used up. So I had to go through all these things pretty much awake or with local or things. So there I was being challenged to feel it all, to face it all.

Mark Nepo: I had my first chemo treatment. I went into a Holiday Inn with my former wife and dear, dear friend, who are still dear friends after all these years. And the only medicine they gave me was oral. So I started getting sick. This was after I had a rib removed in my back two weeks earlier. So I'm getting sick and throwing up every half hour and feeling like it's got to stop. And I was feeling afraid, in pain, not sure what's going on.

Mark Nepo: And somehow, and this is what I mean about being ready for grace, all of a sudden the sun started coming up. And because I was open, and maybe open because of all the pain exhausted, it had occurred to me that somewhere nearby a baby being born. And somewhere nearby a couple making love for the first time. And somewhere further down the road, a father and a son who haven't spoken in years are finally sitting down and having coffee. And it was in that moment that I discovered that to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken.

Mark Nepo: I was raised Jewish. I have a great tie to the Jewish heritage. But through all this, I became a student of all paths. And that's informed all my books, all my teaching. Because even all these years later, the tumor in my brain vanished. That was a miracle. The surgery removed the rib. That was a miracle. Even the damn chemo was a miracle. So I was not, and I'm still not wise enough to know what worked and what didn't. And I feel like I was challenged to believe in everything. And so I really see the common center of all formal and informal paths, the unique gifts of each, and how do we share them? How do we make use of them?

Mel Robbins: Well, what I love about this book so much is, first of all, I really appreciate the format. There is an essay every day that you can read that takes you five minutes or less, but that has you, as you say, drop into the depth of life. And I read a page and I drop in and feel very centered and connected to something larger. And I feel very present in the moment. And then I close it and feel very satisfied. And if I read it the next day, great. If I forget about it and I open it up a month later, great. There it is like an old friend to greet me.

Mel Robbins: I would love, Mark, to have you read one of your favorite essays to give the person a sense.

Mark Nepo: Yeah. So this is one of my favorite passages. It's June 6th, and it's called "Two Monkeys Sleeping."

[Reading] We wandered into a corner of the Central Park Zoo, and there, despite the dozens of tourists pointing and tapping the glass, two monkeys were squinting on a perch of stone. To our surprise, they were both in deep sleep. Their dark heads bowed to each other, their small frames limp. What was amazing was that their delicate hands were touching, their monkey fingers leaning into each other. It was clear that it was this small, sustained touch that allowed them to sleep. As long as they were touching, they could let go.

[Reading] I envied their trust and simplicity. There was none of the human pretense at independence. They clearly needed each other to experience peace. One stirred but didn't wake and the other, in sleep, kept their fingers touching. How deeply rewarding the life of touch. Each was drifting inwardly, dreaming whatever monkeys dream. They looked like ancient travelers praying inside a place of rest made possible because they dared to stay connected. It was one of the most tender and humbling moments I've ever seen. Two aging monkeys weaving fingertips as if their touch alone kept them from oblivion. I pray for the courage to be as simple in asking for what I need.

Mel Robbins: You know, I read that and I can picture it. And then I immediately have a very small-minded thought. How is it that Mark goes to the zoo and sees something so profound and I see the other monkeys throwing poop and my stomach grumbling? I'm joking, but we're talking about the heart space and we're talking about the depth of life and we're talking about the noticing of what's right here. What do you hope that that essay stirs for somebody?

Mark Nepo: The courage to stay connected both to ourselves, each other, and this larger mystery of life. One of the things that is so important, and Chris, as you shared, we all have times when we're closed and we don't realize it. So the first kind of practice is to open. But then the next practice is to connect. Because if I open my eyes, what's the point if I don't see? And if I open my heart and I don't love, what's the point of opening it? So we have to open and then we have to reach and receive while all the stuff is, while the poop is being thrown.

Mark Nepo: We talk about things in life, we separate them so we can make sense of them, but that's not how they exist in life. We talk about suffering and we talk about beauty. But there's a great table, a beautiful organized table of all the elements. But if you go and you cut into a mountain, they're all jumbled up. And that's the way life is. So while we're suffering is when we need to let beauty in. While we're closed is when we need to find the quiet courage to open. While we're afraid. And if I can't do it, I need to ask you for help. That's the whole point of friendship.

Mark Nepo: One of the great central paradoxes of life is that no one has been here who's you. No one can see what you've seen or live your life. And no one can do it alone. I think one of the modern psychological diseases is that we think we should do it alone. This sense which goes back to manifest destiny in America. No, we're interdependent. No one can live my life for me, but I can't do it alone. And I know this from all the things I've been through.

Mel Robbins: Mark, I can't tell you how many times I've already gotten goosebumps in this conversation. And Chris, I am so grateful that you are here. And I love that we are only getting started. There's so much more that we're going to dig into with Mark Nepo and my husband, Chris. But let's take a pause so we can hear from our amazing sponsors. And I also want to give you a chance to share this conversation with people in your life. There's someone that you know and that you care about who needs this wisdom and this encouragement at this exact moment. So please take a moment and share this. And don't go anywhere because we're going to be waiting for you after this short break. So stay with us.

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Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. And today you and I are spending time with a man whose words have helped me and millions of others see the beauty in their lives and the world around them. Talking about the one and only Mark Nepo. He is here to do the same for you. And I am also joined by my husband Chris.

Mel Robbins: So Mark, my next question for you is: why do you think these simple things can act like such a lifeline or open you up when otherwise in life you are going through life feeling very closed off and lonely?

Mark Nepo: I think that one of the things I mentioned earlier, but it's really been a great teacher for me, is that great love and great suffering are the great openers. There are two ways that human beings will basically learn. One is by willfully shedding, and the other is by being broken open. And if you don't willfully shed, don't worry, you'll be broken open. And often it's a combination.

Mark Nepo: Words and phrases and expressions that matter are expressed in those openings. And therefore, whether it comes from me or you or a friend while you're struggling, those are the great openers. And then it's open. That's why it's important to have that heart space open. So when that comes, yes, a phrase.

Mark Nepo: I had a dear friend and mentor who lived to be 102, Joel Elkes. He was a child of the Holocaust. He was a doctor. He was a watercolorist. I met him when he was 80 and thought, "How much time do we have?" And we had 22 years. One sentence he said to me when I was just beginning years ago was such an opening for me. He said, "You have a gift. Honor it and let it be your teacher." At a time when I wasn't sure I had a gift, that was such an opening for me that has really stayed with me my whole life.

Mel Robbins: What does that mean? Can you unpack that a little bit? "You have a gift, honor it and let it be your teacher." What is that? Because you also said everybody has a gift. So how do you honor your gift and how do you let that gift be your teacher?

Mark Nepo: It could be that you might have a gift for growing things. That's the call of your soul. Where we use it in the world, what are you going to grow? Are you going to grow plants? Are you going to grow people? Are you going to grow children? What are you going to grow? So this is where we apply it in the world. All of this is a journey.

Mark Nepo: To honor, and this is very, I love, as you know from my writing, the origins of words. Not because I'm a word geek, but because I've noticed that words erode over time, just like stone and wood. When we go back, more often than not, their original definitions are more whole and so much more helpful. So honor. I love the original definition of the word honor. Honor means "to keep what is true in view." I love that. To keep what is true in view.

Mark Nepo: So for everyone who's with us and listening, how can you personalize the practice of honoring? How do you keep what is true in view about what you know about yourself and your gifts? The first step for any of us is to, the word trust literally means "follow your heart." So to follow our hearts in a daily way. What brings you more alive? What is heartening? Forget about whether it's a career or a project. Just what do you do during the day that brings you more alive? And then do more of it. It could be staring at the sky, or it could be making meals for friends, or it could be stamp collecting.

Mark Nepo: I have a dear friend, Paul, who helped me through my cancer journey all those years ago. One of his great gifts, he did all kinds of things to make a living, but he followed so beautifully. When we were in our 20s, he created an art gallery and that brought him alive. And it was a wonderful art gallery in Albany, New York. And then it changed. The next thing I knew, he was doing sumi painting himself. And then another 10 years, he was apprenticing with a foreign car mechanic. He just followed what brought him. It wasn't whether it was successful or not. It was just that what brought him alive shifted.

Mark Nepo: As long as we take the judgment out of it. "It no longer works" or "It didn't produce something." One of the things that happens to all of us when we're young, you're spinning in recess and this teacher says, "Boy, you're so graceful. You'd be a good dancer." Or hear somebody singing "la la la" over in the corner. "You should be a singer." And now all of a sudden, it gets in our heads from society. "Okay, what do I have to do to become a singer? Does that mean I have to take lessons? Does that mean I have to get a record recorded? Do I have to perform?"

Mark Nepo: If singing brings you alive, whether you sing well or not, you're a singer. So how do we stay a verb and not become a noun? And this is at the heart of finding our own gift. I think it was Howard Thurman who said, we need people who are alive, not people who are good at what they do. Because if we're alive, we will be good at what we do.

Mel Robbins: Well, one of the things that brings me alive is reading from your book because I always drop in. And so I want to read one to you and then I'd love to hear you unpack this one. So this one is May 19th and it's called "The Bee Comes."

[Reading] The flower doesn't dream of the bee. It blossoms and the bee comes.

[Mel pauses, emotional] Oof. Why am I crying? Mark, damn you.

[Reading] At times in my life, I have wanted love so badly that I have reimagined myself, reinvented who I am in an attempt to be more desirable or more deserving, only to discover again and again that it is the tending of my own soul that invites the natural process of love to begin.

[Reading] I remember my very first tumble into love. I found such comfort there that like Narcissus, I became lost in how everything other than my pain was reflected in her beauty. All the while, I was abdicating my own worth, empowering her as the key to my sense of joy.

[Reading] If I've learned anything through the years, it is that though we discover and experience joy with others, our capacity for joy is carried like a pot of nectar in our very own breast. I now believe that our deepest vocation is to root ourselves enough in this life that we can open our hearts to the light of experience and so bloom. For in blooming, we attract others. In being so thoroughly who we are, an inner fragrance is released that calls others to eat of our nectar, and we are loved by friends and partners alike.

[Reading] It seems the very job of being is to ready us for such love. By attending our own inner growth, we uncannily become exactly who we are. And like the tulip whose blossom petal is the exact shape of the bee, our self-actualization attracts a host of loving others more real than all our fantasies. In this way, the universe continues through the unexpected coming together of blossomed souls.

[Reading] So, if you can, give up the want of another and be who you are. And more often than not, love will come at the precise moment you are simply loving yourself.

Mel Robbins: It's so beautiful.

Mark Nepo: Oh, thank you. You read it beautifully.

Mel Robbins: And you also give a prompt that helps you take it deeper. You say, "Identify one trait that makes you feel good about who you are. Your laugh, your smile, your ability to listen, or the sound of your voice. Take a moment and give thanks for your small goodness and for the potential love of others. The next time you exhibit this goodness, notice how who you are affects others."

Mel Robbins: You know what I get out of that, Mark? It's how it's so easy to trash yourself and chase outside validation. But not many of us stop and actually appreciate small traits that we can love about ourselves. And these prompts have really helped me to slow down and to build this muscle where I just notice things that I admire about myself. And that sounds kind of cheesy, but learning how to see things within yourself that make you proud of the kind of person that you are and really witnessing it, it does open up more feelings of appreciation and love and a sense of pride in who you are.

Chris Robbins: And it's easy to look over these small things. We see it in other people, but I think it's a new skill to learn to see it in yourself. So is that what you're trying to teach in that essay there? The importance of loving yourself and how to start doing it?

Chris Robbins: So one of the things about all my writing is that the flower doesn't dream of the bee. It blossoms and the bee comes. I didn't know that when I started that. This is where over time I've discovered that the creative process and the introspective process are really the same thing. I just happen to write it down. There are so many lessons, and one of them is the sense that we don't know. For anyone, by being authentic, we are given insights. When I start things, I am following what is real or troubling or wondrous or confusing for me. If I am true, I'm rewarded with an insight. That is the insight of that whole entry. I didn't know that. Now that becomes my teacher.

Mark Nepo: This is how we can give our hearts attention. What comes by being real gives us clues to our own gifts. One of the things that reveals is like a spiritual law. We often see this with first love. In high school, you love me, which means you see something in me I haven't yet seen. Now my God, I think you got the switch to my light. I can't let you out of my sight, which actually is very self-centered. But nonetheless, I'm just head over heels. What we learn over time is the greatest respectful gift we can give to someone who loves us is to own our own light. You saw it, but it's my switch. I see it in you and it's your switch. We have to honor that in each other. This is one of the beautiful things: by being who we are, we do have to love ourselves first.

Chris Robbins: How would you invite somebody who really wants to be more loving of themselves first and to find the switch? With all the things we're talking about, I would always try to come down to small steps.

Mark Nepo: One is, can you identify and spend time with one thing you feel good about yourself? Can you give me an example? You're a good listener, a good storyteller, good at showing up when people need you, good at asking questions, good at finding the missing piece. It could be a thousand things, but something little. Then pay attention, not just that you feel good when you do it, but what is it opening in you? What's going on? I always encourage people to use their own life as a case study. Just like DNA, everything's embedded. All of biology is embedded in DNA. In our heart, when we touch something real, all of humanity is embedded in there. If I am good at listening to a friend, what does that tell me about my gift of listening? How do I then listen to myself? How do I take that listening and apply it to myself? Not to achieve anything, but to grow more intimate with who I am. Once we're intimate with who we are, we enter our kinship with all things.

Chris Robbins: Why does it begin with being intimate with yourself before you can be connected to everything else?

Mark Nepo: All those traditions speak about it. I really love how the Hindu tradition speaks about it. We have all heard the term namaste or namaste. I say namaste, that's the Brooklyn way of saying it. What it means is, I honor, to keep what is true in view, the portion of universal spirit that resides in you. In the West we call that soul. In the East they call it Atman, Buddha nature. Christianity calls it the Holy Ghost. Judaism calls it Yahweh. There are a thousand names. What I believe is that just like the air in a bluebird house is a little portion of the sky, we call it the soul here. We each carry a portion of universal spirit while we're here. To become intimate with that allows us to be the inlet or the conduit between the world of spirit that has existed forever and going to the grocery store. The heart has to stay open, has to stay this open vessel between all of time and all of life and the person you help up who dropped their groceries. That's why we need to be intimate with our own nature so that we have access to more. There's a paradox: by knowing who I am, I can gain access to all I am not.

[Pause]

Mark Nepo: I'll give you a very personal example. When my father was toward the end of his life, he lived to be 93. We were estranged for many years, and in his 80s we reconnected, which I was so grateful for. He was a master woodworker. We never spoke the same language, although I learned so much about creativity from him by watching him. At the end of his life, he had a stroke and was in the hospital. He could speak but it was so difficult, he just didn't try. I found myself in a very busy hospital setting with beeping and TVs and clattering. All of a sudden, I'm feeding him applesauce with a spoon. It was sad and beautiful and bittersweet. It was my whole life, putting a spoon in his mouth without hitting his teeth. He was getting the applesauce and I'm crying. Going back to what you said, you can't prepare for these things. Because my heart was open, all of a sudden I was in a moment of wonder. Not because I was looking for it, but because I held nothing back and I gave everything to that moment. I suddenly was in the moment of every adult child who ever fed a dying parent. I wasn't alone. By being thoroughly who I was, called to by love, I tripped into this amazing, inexplicable space. It has changed how I think about resilience. I think another form of resilience is when we are thoroughly who we are. If I feel your pain, I am suddenly in the river of everyone who ever felt pain. If I feel your wonder, I'm in the river of everyone who ever felt wonder. By being who we are, gaining access to the kinship of all things, is an amazing form of resilience.

Mel Robbins: Mark, just like the words in The Book of Awakening, everything that you're sharing is giving me a lot to think about. I can see you, Chris, nodding along, and I can feel you as you're either watching on YouTube or listening right now that you're nodding along to. How about we take a beat? I want Mark's brilliant words and wisdom to sink in. I also want to give you a moment to share this with people that you care about. This is really a gift that you can give to somebody else that will awaken something within them at the exact moment that they could use it most. Don't go anywhere because we'll be waiting for you with more insights and more inspiration and more wisdom on how you can have the life you want by being present to the life that you have. Stay with me.

[Musical break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. Today you're getting the exact words that you need to hear today from number one New York Times bestselling author and poet and philosopher, Mark Nepo. Mark has had a huge impact on the Robbins household for the last decade. I'm thrilled that he's here in the studio along with my husband, Chris, who introduced me to Mark's work in the first place.

Chris Robbins: Yeah, I'm still here. I have a passage. April 26th, "The Way is Hard but Clear." Though it is the hardest going, the way is clear. The naturalist and environmentalist Kevin Scribner tells us that salmon make their way upstream by bumping repeatedly into blocked pathways until they find where the current is strongest. Somehow they know that the unimpeded rush of water means there is no obstacle there, and so they enter this opening fervently, for though it is the hardest going, the way is clear. The lesson here is as unnerving as it is helpful. In facing both inner and outer adversities, the passage of truth comes at us with a powerful momentum because it is clear and unimpeded, and so where we sense the rush of truth is where we must give our all. As human beings, the blocked pathways of our journey can take on many forms. Whether it be in avoiding conflict with others, or in not taking the risk to love, or in not accepting the call of spirit that would have us participate more fully in our days, it is often easier to butt up continually against these blocked pathways than to enter fervently the one passage that is so powerfully clear. In this regard, salmon innately model a healthy persistence by showing us how to keep nosing for the unimpeded way, and once finding it, how to work even harder to make it through. Some say it is easier for salmon since the power of their drive to end where they begin is not compromised by the endless considerations that often keep us from the truth. Still, it is the heart's capacity to rise one more time after falling down, no matter how bruised, that verifies that such a drive lives in us too. Like salmon, our way depends not just on facing things head-on, but in moving our whole being through.

[Pause]

Chris Robbins: Thank you. I love that passage for a lot of reasons, not the least of which because I love fish and fishing. It's part of the origin story in finding some of this work and your writing. There were a lot of elements of what was going on in my life that were true, but they were all in that confluence of water rushing, and me not seeking where the water was flowing the hardest. When I read that, it speaks to not only some of the breakthroughs I had for myself, but also I'm often sharing this work with other men who are working as hard as they can and feeling like they are trying to nose their way through the tough stuff. When you're in the middle of it, certainly for the salmon in the middle of the river, it's not always that apparent. It's a lot easier to sit in the eddy, catch your breath, and then really go for it. This is a lot of what I find myself in conversation about: finding that at least discussing what could be true, and then trying to inch ourselves towards that rushing water.

Mark Nepo: Thank you. I also feel it's important that in facing these openings, we can't do it alone and we don't have to do it all at once. I may find, "Oh, there it is," but I don't know if I can do it today. My native language, the one I was born with, was metaphor. I've always seen things in looking at things and then worked to find out what the teaching is. In that one, I think it also speaks to how we're often humbled into letting go of where we think we're going.

Mel Robbins: I wanted to dig more into that essay, Chris. When you read it as the salmon, if you've ever seen salmon swimming upstream, leaping up with the water, efforting their way, I think if I had to guess why there's so much emotion, it's that oftentimes where the water is rushing, you are actively resisting going there. Whether it's ending the relationship, admitting to yourself that you're not happy, getting sober, or deciding that you want to have a deeper spiritual experience. You know and you feel the pull, but you spend years, if not decades, bumping against the rock, feeling the pull and scared to turn toward it. You get this lesson over and over in life and you go, "Oh, of course. I wish I would have made that decision five years ago when I first felt the water rushing there, but I was scared." I feel like your tears, because you sit in circle with so many men on your retreat, that you see the pain that we cause ourselves unknowingly because we are scared of that rushing water and scared of where it's leading.

Chris Robbins: I think the way you describe it is spot on. If you take the salmon out of it, I often think about it like Superman must feel right before he breaks his face through the brick wall and gets to the other side. That is where the most force is. To what you're saying, Mel, about resistance and fear.

Mel Robbins: If I go back to what you said, Mark, the word trust is follow your heart. A lot of times in life, that rushing current deep down is where your heart is leading.

Mark Nepo: I think it also can be up here in many ways. That clear rush way can be admitting what is true. It can be admitting our limitations. It can be putting down a dream that turned out to be a cocoon for the dream we didn't see coming. Your compassion for those you work with is so touching. It challenges us that we can't rob anyone of their journey. All we can do is help them. If you fall down, I can help you up. If you're bleeding, I can get a band-aid or call the doctor. But inwardly, this is what compassion really means. The word literally means "to be with." To be with you means I agree to feel your pain. I agree to feel your joy. But I can't live your life. No one can live your life, but we can't do it alone. One of the things we suffer in the modern world, especially in the West, is we feel like we're entitled to a stress-free, conflict-free, sensation-free existence. That's death. If we're here, what we learn from is the full range of being human, which includes all of it. To follow your heart and trust that you'll feel things, you may get nicked, you may break a leg, you may break your heart. But the portion of universal spirit that you're blessed to carry is stronger and more whole and will carry you through it. Also, the humbling thing is to always ask for help.

Chris Robbins: Is there something that you say to yourself when you are standing before one of those walls of fire in life?

Mark Nepo: There are cloudy days, but the sun never stops shining. That doesn't mean that when you're under a cloud and it's storming, that's not real. It's wet, it's damp, you get cold. The sun doesn't stop shining. We are challenged with the open heart to relate to both. The old saying, "Is the glass half full or half empty?" It's always both. I find that such a useless question because then we spend time either trying to be in the full side or the empty side. It's always both. The challenge of being fully here is how do we stay in relationship to both? I always say when people say that, it's really about the glass. You can fill it with whatever you choose and you can empty it out, which forces you to be in relation to what is in it.

Mel Robbins: If the person who's listening, Mark, is like, "I just want to look at life the way that Mark does," where do you suggest that they begin?

Mark Nepo: The first thing is I encourage you not to look at life as I do, but to find your own direct connection with life. I'll meet you there. This is so important because it's not about being like anybody else. We start by admitting what we don't know. We start by opening our heart. There's a practice. The word "admit" has two meanings. Admit means to declare or confess what is true, but it also means to let in. These things work together. The more that I admit what's true, the more I let in. The more I let in, the more I'm capable of admitting what's true. I invite people to start by admitting what is true.

Mel Robbins: I love that you said that. One of the things that I believe and I say a lot is that all it takes to change your life for the better is to admit that how your life is right now, or certain aspects of it, doesn't make you particularly happy. Just declaring that truth allows in a different possibility.

Mark Nepo: In one of my poems, there's a line: the most powerful thing we can do when feeling powerless is admit what is true. So often, I'm afraid of being lonely and I already am. I'm afraid things are going to change. They've already changed. Often the heart knows first and we play catch up. This is why it's so important because we're human. A lot of the things we talk about, about being blocked or struggling, I think of them not as deficiencies, but as developmental aspects of our journey.

Chris Robbins: What do you do when you wake up in the morning? I wake up, I get out of bed, I make the bed, I brush my teeth, I go for a walk. I read a page in your book a lot of mornings to anchor me. But what do you do first thing in the morning?

Mark Nepo: The first thing I do, and this opens up a wonderful thing I'd love to talk about. I'm up. My wife, Susan, is kind of a night owl, and I'm a morning person, which gives us good alone time at either end of the day. We don't have kids, but a very spoiled yellow lab, Zuzu. The first thing I do is three simple things as rituals to start the day. I open up the blinds to let light in. I take care of something living by feeding Zuzu. Then I do something for someone I love: I make coffee for Susan before she wakes. I invite people who are with us to think of your own simple rituals. When I inhabit them fully, they change the whole day. This brings up the difference between ritual and habit. When I'm present to it, I'm letting the light in, caring for something living, and doing something for someone I love. That aligns me for the day. If I'm late and I go, "I got to open the damn blinds, I got to feed the dog, I love you," that just turned into a habit.

Mel Robbins: I just had a huge breakthrough. I realized that there's something I do every morning that I didn't even realize was part of the morning. When I open my eyes, especially when we're home, I look right out the window and I savor what I see. I had never thought about the grounding ritual that keeps you connected to something bigger, rather than the things I do that feel like the doing versus the being. What is the difference between ritual and habit in your words?

Mark Nepo: It's being present and open-hearted. The thing about self-awareness, this is a good example of the work of self-awareness. I'm rushing through, I'm late. "Oh, I got to open the damn blinds." But I can stop and go back and say, "I'm going to be present and make it a ritual again." We can do that like that. I looked to find the origin of the word ritual, which goes back to a Sanskrit word, RTA, which means the hidden order of the universe. Rituals that we make ritual by being present and open-hearted reveal the hidden order of the universe. It's something that anyone can do, even in the middle of the day. If you realize you're not present, stop, no judgment, back up, do the simple thing open-heartedly.

Chris Robbins: Can you give us a couple examples of a ritual that the person listening can start to implement in their life to tap into this power?

Mark Nepo: Anything that you do either beginning the day, ending the day, or during the day. Choose three simple things. It may be watering the flowers. Be open to the water feeding the flowers as they grow and what that mirrors in you that is growing. Or dropping something off for someone, leaving a meal for someone. Anything that you can open your heart to, to take in what it really means. It could be making the bed. I have a poem where the first part goes, "I gotta make the bed every day, what's the point? I gotta pay the bills." Then in the poem, a friend calls up and says, "It's such a wonderful day. I get to make the bed and I get to pay the bills." The glass is both half full and half empty. Being human, there will be days when we feel like, "I got to do this again." But by staying open-hearted and admitting and being present, we recover the miracle of it. The goal is not to eliminate one or the other because we're human. How do we be kind to ourselves and go, "Yeah, there will be days that I'll feel like I don't believe I have to do this one more time." Let life unfold. Tomorrow you say, "Oh my God, I get to make the bed and wake up and look out the window."

[Pause]

Mark Nepo: One other thing about this for me. Years ago, I would always do the tedious things first and save the really sacred things when I got all that done. Nobody taught me to do it that way. Somehow I did that. I had it backwards. By doing what matters first, it changes the entire day. Because my lens, my aperture of heart and mind, is wider and deeper, and the tasks are not as tedious. It doesn't mean that something tedious is suddenly wonderful, but it takes the edge off of all that.

Mel Robbins: I really want to get to your new bestselling book, The Fifth Season, which is all about creativity in the second half of life. You write beautifully about growing older with purpose. I'd love to have you talk about what you've learned about purpose and creativity as you have gotten older that you wish you had known a long time ago. I realize you couldn't have known it a long time ago because you now know it based on your experience.

Mark Nepo: One of the things I find myself saying more often as I get older is, "I wish I'd known this five years ago." But we're always right on time. As much as we wanted it to happen, we can't. The things that I'm writing now, I couldn't have written 20 years ago, 30 years ago, because I hadn't experienced what I've experienced. I start the book with a metaphor that has been such a teacher for me: the metaphor of a meteor. As a meteor comes into the atmosphere, very few land on Earth. Most of them are burned up. A meteor comes into the atmosphere, and as it starts to flake off, it gets brighter and brighter until there's nothing left but light. I think this is a good metaphor for the journey of a spirit in a body in time on Earth over a lifetime. We don't like the flaking off. My back surgery was flaking off. The arthritis I'm starting to feel is flaking off. But I am getting brighter and brighter, and letting that light that's coming through me be my teacher.

[Pause]

Mark Nepo: I think our horizons shift. I'm 74. I sure hope I live to be 100. My great-grandmother lived to be 105, and my grandmother 94, so I'm hoping. Regardless, there's more years behind than ahead. The horizon shifts in that the true purpose of looking forward or back is to make my light brighter now. This brings in the true purpose of memory. Memory is not nostalgia. Nostalgia is wanting to go back and live in a time because it feels like that was better than now. The true purpose of memory is: if there was a time in my past where I felt a certain aliveness or wonder or gift or love, can I revisit that to remember what it feels like, to trace and see where it is in me now, so I can recover it now, not go back to then? The same thing with dreams at this stage of life. If I'm dreaming forward, it's because I'm allowing something in me that wants to be born to come out. How do I take that and see where it lives in me now? I'm learning this later in life. It's actually a very helpful practice no matter what age you are.

Mel Robbins: If there's one message that you hope someone carries with them after being here with us and really taking in the gifts that you've given us today, what do you hope the person carries away from this conversation?

Mark Nepo: That we are more together than alone and that we need each other. I would also want to share two notions about faith in a poem. The Buddhist word for faith is sadha. It means resting the heart in what is true. I think that's an inner definition of functional faith, not faith in a doctrine or a tradition or a saint or a sage. All the things we've been talking about—opening, admitting, opening a heart, ritual versus habit, courage, surrender—these are ways to rest the heart in what is true. That lets us stand by our core. The outer sense of functional faith, I refer to Paul Tillich, who was a Protestant theologian. He said, "Faith is an act of ultimate concern." I love that. By resting our heart in what is true, what's in the heart comes out through the hands in the world. How do we practice personally resting our heart in what is true and giving ourselves to acts of ultimate concern? Those are two wonderful practices to devote ourselves to.

[Pause]

Mark Nepo: The poem I'd love to end with is one of my poems called "Free Fall."

If you have one hour of air and many hours to go, you must breathe slowly. If you have one arm's length and many things to care for, you must give freely. If you have one chance to know God and many doubts, you must set your heart on fire. We are blessed. Each day is a chance. We have two arms. Fear wastes air.

Mel Robbins: Mark Nepo, what are your parting words?

Mark Nepo: My parting words are that life is more than anything we could dream of if we truly meet each other and meet ourselves right here, right now.

Mel Robbins: I want to thank you for teaching me how to do that. I want to thank you for getting on a plane and coming here to our studios in Boston and sharing everything that you did. It has been a real honor to finally meet you. I am so excited by the ripple of positive change and consciousness that will spread around the world in ways that we will never know because of the person who is listening today who shares this experience with people that they deeply care about. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for making a huge difference in my life.

Chris Robbins: I love you. Thank you for being here.

Mark Nepo: I love you too.

Mel Robbins: I want to thank you for choosing to spend time listening to something that could open up your heart and change your life. As your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you, in case nobody else does today, that I love you and I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. Opening yourself up to the magic of life itself will certainly help you create a better life. I really want that for you. That's all I got to say, because I think I got to go cry or read a Mark Nepo passage. I'll be waiting for you in the next episode. I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there.

[Sound of movement]

Chris Robbins: I don't want to run into the bathroom. I do too.

Mel Robbins: We're connected in the spiritual river running energy.

Chris Robbins: All right, good.

Mel Robbins: Yes, we all have to pee. Okay, I do anyway.

Chris Robbins: Why am I already crying? Damn it, Mel.

Mel Robbins: Looking over at Chris. I'm a bad influence. I see him welling up on every word that you say.

Mark Nepo: This is actually a flower... narcissus. Why can I talk? This is a narcissus.

Chris Robbins: Is it outside?

Mark Nepo: It's outside. It sounds like it's next door on the left.

Mel Robbins: Well, thank you both. This has been so wonderful to be in such a deep space with you both.

Chris Robbins: I try not to do shallow, but it always drags me into the deep end of his damn questions and his listening and his open heart.

Mel Robbins: All right, great. Oh, and one more thing. This is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.