--:-- Noelle King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Vox's Zach Beauchamp, senior correspondent.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: Thanks for having me, Noelle.
--:-- Noelle King: So, Zach has a very cool beat, democracy. And I got a book coming out on that topic. What's the book going to be called?
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: It's called The Reactionary Spirit, and it covers, among other countries, India.
--:-- Noelle King: India just held an election. The votes have now been counted. It was a long process. This is a very, very big country. And the outcome is different than most people expected. What happened?
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: The ruling party, the BJP, as it's called, led by a very popular prime minister, Narendra Modi, was expected to win in a landslide. They won. I want to be clear on the results. They won. But they won by a much smaller margin than they expected.
--:-- Noelle King: Why did this happen? So that's the question everybody's asking. And honestly, we're all trying to figure it out.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: I'm reporting on this right now. I'm talking to experts. And a lot of the time when I speak to, you know, leading people in Indian politics, they're like, look, we don't know yet. It's shocking.
--:-- Noelle King: But I'll give you some of the leading theories. So the biggest one is the economy. Now, India's economy has been growing at a pretty strong clip. I mean, one of the best in the world. The issue is that the benefits of that growth are unevenly distributed. There's still a lot of poverty and there's a lot of unemployment, especially among young people.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: So the line that you're hearing is you can't hate Hindu nationalism. Modi campaigned primarily on an ideological platform, you know, saying this is a Hindu country. I'm the advocate for Hindus. That's the whole BJP ideology.
--:-- Noelle King: Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been accused of making Islamophobic comments during an election rally, triggering widespread anger from Muslims and members of the opposition.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: And it seems like the counter-messaging from the opposition parties was, well, okay, fine, but your young people are unemployed. There's not electricity that's reliable in a lot of different places. What are you going to do about that if all you're doing is talking about how the Muslims are infiltrators?
--:-- Noelle King: The real shock here has been the state of Uttar Pradesh, where most analysts are singling that out as the key reason why they underperformed expectations, right? Their underperformance in that state.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: Do we know who voted against him in Uttar Pradesh? We're still trying to sort that out, but a lot of it seems to be centered in the Dalit or untouchable class, which is the lowest caste in the Hindu caste system.
--:-- Noelle King: The caste politics were intertwined with the economic issues, right? Like caste is not in India a direct correlate with economic status. But if you're upper caste, you're more likely to be wealthy. If you're lower caste, you're more likely to be poor.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: And so it seems to be, at least in part, that the lower caste revolts against the BJP is bound up in part in economic issues. One thing that's clear is that the cross-caste alliance that BJP had built is not as durable as many people had expected.
--:-- Noelle King: Zach, I was reading this morning that Modi lost a Yodhya, which is a place that I was super interested in because we did an episode on how he built a temple there on the site of a disputed mosque.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: And he did that as a way of speaking to his base, being like, I'm your guy. Mr. Modi said that he had a lump in his throat when he went inside the temple sanctum sanctorum. And he congratulated the country on this occasion.
--:-- Noelle King: He actually said 22nd January is, I quote, not a date on a calendar, but a dawn of a new era. And the assumption was, oh, he's definitely going to win here. What do you think it means that places where he seemed like a gimme, he just didn't turn out to be a gimme?
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: Is this backlash or do you think we were reading the TV script? So, I mean, it's both, right? Like, there's this incredible video on Indian television of a pollster who got the results wrong, right, very wrong, predicted massive BJP victory, breaking down and crying on national television.
--:-- Noelle King: When you win some and you lose some, he still has a fabulous track record. It became clear that Modi's party had in fact lost its majority in parliament.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up on Today Explained, India reminds the world what democracy looks like. Support for this show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.
--:-- Noelle King: I've never met an AI agent. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at ServiceNow.com. It's Today Explained.
--:-- Noelle King: India reminds the world what democracy looks like.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: Support for this show comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars. But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
--:-- Noelle King: Not anymore, says Built Rewards. Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: Your home isn't just where you sleep, it's your community, and Built wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios. You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month.
--:-- Noelle King: When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining built.com slash explained.
--:-- Zach Beauchamp: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- Noelle King: You're listening to Today Explained. In the summer of 2022, journalist Angad Singh took what should have been an easy trip. My family was visiting my grandparents in India. I wanted to join them.
--:-- Angad Singh: My grandma and grandpa had just had a terrible bout of COVID. Barely survived, so I jumped on a plane to New Delhi from New York. Got to the airport and realized I wasn't going to be allowed in.
--:-- Noelle King: He's American, but his family are sick and they live in India. Now, India doesn't allow dual citizenship, but it does allow people of Indian origin to be overseas citizens of India. There's even a little card that you carry.
--:-- Angad Singh: Angad had been using that card without problems for years. And yet here he was in India, stuck at customs. And then it got worse. They sort of escorted me to a deportation cell, asked me some questions, didn't really tell me what was going on.
--:-- Noelle King: Sat me on the same plane that I came on. Upon landing in New York, I was given my passport back. And in order to find out what was behind all of this, I had to sue the Indian government to find out some answers.
--:-- Angad Singh: What did you hear and what did you expect to hear? What I heard from them, that I would have been blacklisted for creating anti-national propaganda that portrayed India's secular credentials in a negative light.
--:-- Noelle King: I don't know what I was expecting, to be honest, because in my mind, I had always approached my storytelling about India from a place of deep appreciation for a culture that I felt I've always belonged to.
--:-- Angad Singh: So it was really devastating to be told that the Indian government sees me as this master propagandist who is trying to undermine the national sovereignty and integrity and security of the nation with the films that I make.
--:-- Noelle King: At the same time, it was kind of flattering because I was like, wow, I guess my work has been impactful. This is a very specific charge that you portrayed India's secular credentials in a negative light. What do you think they were referring to?
--:-- Angad Singh: What was in these documentaries that you made? I actually only went to India once in my life in the capacity as a journalist. I've been there many times from my childhood as just an individual going to see my family and my ancestral homeland.
--:-- Noelle King: But in the documentary that I worked on while I was in India, it was about India's constitution. And we were talking about landmark bills that had been passed by the Indian government at that time.
--:-- Angad Singh: Everyone was talking about this new law called the Citizenship Amendment Act that essentially gave a pathway to citizenship to everybody besides Muslims in the country.
--:-- Noelle King: So the film was essentially looking at, is India under the Narendra Modi's second administration holding true to those secular values at the core of its constitution? And a lot of people were saying this citizenship law is clearly discriminatory against one group of people based on their religion.
--:-- Angad Singh: So, I was a uncredited production assistant on that film. So my role was quite minor in all of the editorial workings. But our team definitely landed a very strong interview with Subramaniam Swami, who's a leading figure in the Bharatiya Janata Party's government.
--:-- Noelle King: If Muslims become more than 30%, that country is in danger. That sounds like hatred. That sounds like language of hatred. It's easy to say hatred. I'm being kind to them by not letting them come to India.
--:-- Angad Singh: Mr. Swami said it as many people in India see it. He said it very straight. All people are not equal Muslims do not deserve equal rights to apply for citizenship. There no such as equal rights. They not in an equal category.
--:-- Noelle King: It was hugely controversial. The interview itself was quoted widely around the world. It was referenced in a letter by the UN Undersecretary General for the Prevention of Genocide, a letter about its concern about India's treatment of its minorities.
--:-- Angad Singh: Pakistan's Prime Minister at the time, Imran Khan, even retweeted that clip. Wow. So it became this sort of international news item.
--:-- Noelle King: I think that was in part why our crew and me in particular were targeted so much. This is essentially the cost that India seeks to impose on its critics.
--:-- Angad Singh: Whether you're an American who has Indian ties or not, if you go to India, if you are critical of the administration, you will not be allowed back in.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's particularly devastating for us who are overseas citizens because we have the most nuanced understanding. And I think that's what India is most scared of, is it's critics in the diaspora who are of Indian origin, who actually understand the country and have a lot to say about it.
--:-- Angad Singh: And that's why they impose such high costs for speaking up.
--:-- Noelle King: Have you gone to the U.S. government and said, hey, I'm an American citizen. I have family in India. They're blocking me. Have you asked anyone for help?
--:-- Angad Singh: It's India's sovereign right to decide who they let in and who they don't. And the United States, quite frankly, doesn't care.
--:-- Noelle King: What the United States says is this is an alliance of democracies and it will continue. But at the end of the day, I'm just one person. And I'm just here making my videos and being a part of the free press.
--:-- Angad Singh: What has all this meant for you, like your personal life? I mean, this is your grandparents. This is your extended family. And from what I understand, you simply cannot see them.
--:-- Noelle King: I grew up getting told to go back to my own country, that I was a terrorist growing up in Georgia, the United States, where I was the only Sikh American in my community, one of the few Indian Americans in my community.
--:-- Angad Singh: And I would go back to India regularly and it was in India, visiting my grandparents, connecting with my ancestral homeland that I learned to love the parts of me that America did not yet understand.
--:-- Noelle King: Knowing that I'm no longer welcome there, knowing that when I went to India last time, they were the ones who told me, go back to your own country. And when I got back, I looked on Twitter and everyone was calling me a terrorist and I wasn't welcome here.
--:-- Angad Singh: It blew my mind because it was the same sort of nonsense that I faced growing up in Southern America after 9-11.
--:-- Noelle King: How has it impacted me? I worry that myself, my family, my future generations, we're not going to be allowed to go back to where we belong to.
--:-- Angad Singh: And that's a really, really tough thing to lose. I've had family members tell me, you should do something else. You're a really smart guy. What has this gotten you? You think about that sometimes, but I don't really know any other way to navigate my life.
--:-- Noelle King: Were you watching as the results from the election came in?
--:-- Angad Singh: Absolutely. It seems to be a bit of a shocker in that this idea that the Hindu nationalists being unified as one, which is something Modi loves to talk about, is not actually as popular as he and his party thought it would be.
--:-- Noelle King: I wonder, though, what the outcome of that will be. Narendra Modi is an authoritarian, and one thing that we know about authoritarians, wherever they hail from, is they don't like being embarrassed.
--:-- Angad Singh: And the analysis I'm reading is this is deeply embarrassing for Narendra Modi. Do you think at the end of the day that this could make life more difficult for this man's critics, for people like you, for people like you but who are living in India?
--:-- Noelle King: Most definitely. I mean, it's never been easy to be a critic of those who are in power. Yeah. And history has shown that for generations.
--:-- Angad Singh: But I do believe that there's certainly a chance that the conditions could get worse that you know they might resort to more of the sort of communal politics but I think people are also coming together and realizing that there's solidarity amongst the diversity that does exist within India and there's something to be protected and cherished within that as well.
--:-- Noelle King: That was journalist Angad Singh. Today's episode was produced by Peter Balanon-Rosen, edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Andrea Kristinsdottir and David Herman, whose last day with us is today.
--:-- Noelle King: David's talent and taste and artistry are unmatched, and although he usually says very little, recently he said something that I will remember forever. He actually really loves doing daily news. And we really love him.
--:-- Noelle King: Fair winds and following seas, David. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Fall is right around the corner and that means layering season is too. Macy's fall fashion guide can help you get a pulse on all the latest trends and must-haves.
--:-- Noelle King: Try a romantic look with a sheer top from inc or mix it up with some fun textures like a faux bomber jacket from carl lagerfeld paris. No matter your vibe, you can explore the macy's fall fashion guide and find the perfect look for you. Shop in store or online at macy's.com.
