--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this episode of Today Explained comes from HelloFresh. Right now, you can get $80 off your first month by going to HelloFresh.com slash Explained80 and entering the promo code Explained80.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My real regret of all of this is that there is no camera in the federal courts. If this case were televised, it would be on every network.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, the first couple times that I was in court and El Chapo comes out and is escorted by U.S. marshals, it was sort of almost an awe-inspiring moment where there's a hush comes over the courtroom and everybody's looking really intently. All eyes are on this guy.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I got to say that, you know, as the weeks have worn on, that allure has worn off, sort of, and every day he seems just more and more like a normal human being. But it's probably safe to call him a mass murderer.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You ever catch those mass murderer eyes? I have indeed. He has sort of a full-bore stare, and El Chapo's wife, Emma Coronel, sits right behind us.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I sort of had my back turned to the courtroom and was making small talk, just chit-chatting with his wife, and I could see her sort of looking over my shoulder, and I turn around and he had been trying to get her attention, but I was talking to her and I just got the full stare.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there's a moment where it's almost panic, like a knot in your stomach. You're like, oh my God, am I in trouble? Do I need to go into some government protection? And then you're like, wait a minute, this guy's surrounded by U.S. Marshals. He's in solitary confinement in a maximum security federal jail.
--:-- [Sound of a courtroom]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it's easy to see how somebody who was on the receiving end of that stare when he wasn't in U.S. custody would be deeply scared and in deep trouble.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Hi, I'm Keegan Hamilton, and this is Chapo. For the uninitiated, who is El Chapo?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So El Chapo is Joaquin El Chapo Guzman Loera. He is a leader of the Sinaloa cartel, which is one of, if not the most powerful drug trafficking organization in Mexico.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's been active in the drug trade basically since the late 70s and was one of the most powerful drug lords in Mexico through the 90s and 2000s up until his final capture in 2016.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And he was captured by Mexican authorities, United States authorities?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He was captured by Mexican authorities with a lot of help from the United States, particularly the FBI and the DEA.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Why is he being tried in Brooklyn?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: That was one of several jurisdictions in the United States that had an indictment for him. Some of the others included Texas, California, Florida.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: But New York offers one of the highest security federal jails in the country, in Manhattan, the MCC.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And because the U.S. government knows this is a high-profile trial and wants a lot of eyes to be on it, so to maximize the press coverage.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This courthouse is operating like a fortress right now.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Joaquin El Chapo Guzman is facing 17 counts, including drug trafficking, kidnapping, and murder.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Two jurors already dismissed, highlighting the heavy burden on a jury in a trial expected to last four months.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What was it like to select a jury to sit in this trial? I mean, that feels like maybe the most dangerous public service you could imagine.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: You saw a lot of people. I was one of the five reporters in the courtroom as they were picking these jurors.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And I'd say at least a quarter, maybe a third of those folks said, there's no way I'm going to be on this jury because I'm afraid for my life.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Ultimately, all of the 12 jurors and the six alternates who they picked are anonymous.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They do get to go home to their families every night.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They're not sequestered in a hotel room, but they are escorted to and from the courthouse by U.S. Marshals.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And Chapo gets to look them in the eye every single day.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, this is a guy who's been accused of gruesome murders, who's being accused of being responsible for maybe hundreds, thousands more.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's escaped from prison multiple times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there a sense that, you know, trying him in a Brooklyn court is dangerous?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: It's pretty far-fetched to think that there's a way that the cartel could try to bust him out.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And the security at the courthouse itself is very intense.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They have bomb-sniffing dogs.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They have radiation detectors in case somebody tries to bring a dirty bomb in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But a funny thing happened in early January when the trial resumed after the winter break.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Right before the trial was getting underway for the day, when the courtroom was packed, Choppa was at the defense table with his lawyers.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I think there was even a witness on the stand about to testify.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The lights went out, and it was just pitch black.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: You couldn't see your hand in front of your face.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And one of the reporters in the row just yells out, he's gone!
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: There's a moment of panic where everybody looks, and no, he's just sitting right there at the table.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And everybody laughed.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Did he laugh?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He doesn't speak English.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I don't know that he understood what was just said, but the U.S. Marshals are the ones who are in charge of guarding him in the courtroom and making sure he doesn't escape.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because we are talking about like one of the most surely sophisticated drug operations ever, what have been sort of the more remarkable moments in the trial, the more remarkable revelations?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So far in the trial we had nine major cooperating witnesses and they run the gamut from some of his major Colombian cocaine suppliers who are in U custody to his Mexican cartel associates some of his right-hand men, his top lieutenants, and then some more obscure figures.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Just recently we heard from a guy who is best described as the Sinaloa cartel's IT guy.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He set up an encrypted communications system for the cartel and then became an informant and let the FBI into that network so that they could obtain recordings of Chapo discussing cartel business on the phone.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The phone calls that the FBI was able to get from these servers really were just a window into the day-to-day operations of the cartel.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And you see that Chapo is essentially a micromanager.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He is in constant communication with his underlings, directing every aspect of his business.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's getting on the phone with corrupt police commanders to ask for favors.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's talking to his chief enforcer about how to battle a rival cartel group.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On top of that, perhaps the most salacious thing that we heard from the IT guy was that Chapo was obsessed with spying on people who worked for him.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And not just his employees, but also the women in his life.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: His wife, Emma Cornell, and his mistresses, he had the IT guy install commercial spyware on their cell phones so that he could remotely turn on the microphones on their phones.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So he could hear what they were saying after he'd finished talking to them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just your friendly neighborhood, totally insecure drug lord.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I also hear there were like a set of twins who testified against him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do twins go at the same time or do they still have to go one by one?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Actually, they just put the same twin up there twice and say it's a different guy.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The Flores twins, Pedro and Margarito Flores, were wholesalers for Chicago.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They were born and raised in Chicago and then fled the U.S. when they were under indictment, went to Sinaloa and became basically some of Chapo's top drug distributors in the United States.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And we heard from one of those twins so far, we might hear from another before it's all said and done, who described the complete supply chain, how drugs get from Colombia to Mexico, smuggled across the border and then make their way to Chicago and distributed across basically the entire United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how exactly does that work?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: A lot of bribes is a big part of it, paying the Mexican and Colombian authorities to make sure that the shipments get from South America to Mexico and to the border without being intercepted by the authorities there.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And then at the border, there's just an enormous array of smuggling techniques, none of which a giant wall at the border would stop.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: In most cases, they were being smuggled across the border through semi-trucks, commercial trucks with hidden compartments.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They also used trains.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: One of their favorite tactics was to use oil tankers, like rail cars with oil tankers on them.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And those had secret compartments at either end.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they would fill the tankers up with, I think they said vegetable oil or some type of cooking oil.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So that anybody who popped the top on this container would look in and see oil and say, I don't want to mess with getting in there or trying to drain that.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And it proved to be remarkably effective.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day brings something new.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: For me, one of the big takeaways is that for an outsider or somebody who just follows this sort of casually, You hear the name Chapo and you assume that he's the one guy at the top calling all of the shots.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: But it's way more complicated than that.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And the prosecutors, as they've laid out their case, have made it clear that Chapo was not the only major drug trafficker.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The Sinaloa cartel was a federation is another word that they've used to describe it of top traffickers who each sort of had their own factions or networks.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they would cooperate when it suits them.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they would work individually when it benefited them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there's Chopo and then there's a half dozen other guys who were coordinating their own drug shipments.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The way that I've explained it to people is think of it like a major corporation, something like GM, where it's a brand name that everybody knows, but under that there's all these other brands.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: There's Chevy, there's GM, there's Buick, and they're all under the umbrella of GM, but they're their own sort of businesses as well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you can't get to the top of a corporation like GM without at least some people admiring you, right?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Like El Chapo, though intensely feared, is also loved by some people in Mexico.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Yeah, it depends where you are in Mexico.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: In his home state of Sinaloa, you would hear from people who say, yeah, Chapo, he fills the void that the government doesn't.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He pays for roads, he pays for planes to transport sick people to the hospital from the mountains.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is why there are, like, thousands of folk songs written about him, right?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Yeah, the narco-corritos are a facet of the Mexican cartel world.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They will, in some cases, commission artists to make songs that sing their praises.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And Chapo has many, many narco-corritos written about him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So he's got that sort of narco-Robin Hood reputation in his home state.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: But we also spoke to folks in Mexico City who called him a parasite, who said this guy is a criminal and he gives our country a bad name.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Coming up, prison escapes, Sean Penn, and an unusually large taco order.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Southwest chicken and peppers with yellow rice and black beans.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: This dish packs all your favorite Southwest flavors into one delicious bowl.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Seriously, it's like a Tex treasure hunt for tasty toppings.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: In it, you find chili and cumin spiced chicken, creamy black beans, a tangle of tender peppers, and a dollop of tangy sour cream.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The base is a bed of golden-hued rice, which gets its beautiful color from turmeric, a spice that's been around for centuries.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: It comes from the root of a plant from the ginger family, and it's known for its earthy flavor and signature deep yellow color.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you like recipes and food, but don't like going outside, try HelloFresh.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: You get $80 off your first month by going to HelloFresh.com slash Explained80 when you enter the promo code Explained80.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's HelloFresh.com slash Explained80 and the promo code Explained80.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They'll bring the food and the recipes to your door.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So who exactly is El Chapo?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Like, where did he come from in Mexico?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: What was his childhood like?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Did he want to grow up to be a drug lord?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: El Chapo was born in a tiny, tiny village in the mountains of Sinaloa, which is in the Sierra Madre Mountains in an area called the Golden Triangle.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: This area is incredibly poor, and it's a solid four-hour drive from the nearest major city, Culiacan, over some incredibly rough roads.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The famous story is that his family had nothing, and so he would sell oranges by the side of the road to bring in a little extra money for his family.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Eventually, he, as many people do in that area of Mexico, realized the only way to provide for your family was to start growing marijuana and opium poppies, which get processed into heroin.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And he parlayed his drug crops into the multi-million dollar empire that it eventually became.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what is it about his rise that led to empire?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: What made him more savvy than your average drug dealer or your average entrepreneur?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I think everybody agrees that Chapo is just a smart guy, a good businessman.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The big innovation that Chapo is credited with is building tunnels underneath the border, smuggling tunnels.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And that supposedly earned him the name El Rapido from Colombian cocaine suppliers because they would ship their product to Mexico and Chapa would get it across the border in record time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even today with the DEA and Homeland Security is still finding cross-border tunnels in San Diego, Arizona, that part of the border.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Marijuana, before legalization in the United States, was a big cash crop for the cartel.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Heroin, which the cartel can control the production of because they can grow the poppies in Mexico, was another big one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the moneymaker, what really changed the game was cocaine.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And for a number of years, back in the late 70s and 80s, in Pablo Escobar's heyday, Colombians would ship the cocaine pretty much directly from Colombia to the United States.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: It would go through the Caribbean.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They called it the Caribbean route.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But when the U.S. started cracking down on that, the Colombians needed a new way to get their product to market.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And the obvious solution was the giant land border with Mexico.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So they started working with Chapo and other major Mexican traffickers to ship cocaine across the land border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that is what really changed the game in Mexico and brought a huge influx of cash and power to the Mexican cartels.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So as he's making this sort of meteoric rise to being the king of this empire, what's the sort of byproduct of it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me about the ugliness of this rise.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Violence is an unavoidable part of the drug business.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: You know, this is basically a corporation is what the Sinaloa cartel is.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: In a legal corporation, you know, if there's a business dispute of some kind, you can go to civil court and have your lawyer settle it.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: In the drug trade, they don't have that luxury, and inevitably, violence is the way to solve those problems.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So there's killings over drug debts, and then there's killings over just rivalries.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: As you get powerful cartel figures, many of whom came from the same rural area of Sinaloa as Chapo, there's these sort of lifelong grudges.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And when one act of violence is met with retaliation, which starts a whole spiral that can become a war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What we saw a few years ago in Ciudad Juarez along the border with El Paso, Texas can be basically traced back to a personal dispute between El Chapo and the leader of the Juarez cartel that got out of hand and made Juarez the murder capital of the Western Hemisphere for a good four years.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: With drug cartels battling over control of the city and smuggling routes into the United States, The people of Juarez say the killings only stop when the Mexican national team is playing on TV or when it's raining outside.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As these killings and death tolls tick up, at what point exactly does law enforcement start trying to track him down?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I mean, law enforcement had been trying to track Chapo down basically since the early 90s.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He was successfully captured in 1993 and spent the next eight years in prison.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He was in prison in Mexico from 1993 to 2001.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then he escaped and was on the run again from 2001 until 2014.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And then he was in prison briefly, escaped again in 2015.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, who knows how hard the Mexican authorities really were trying to capture him.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: We've heard a lot about corruption in this trial, and it's clear that he was allowed to operate, and in many cases allowed to escape, because he had paid off the right people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The first time he escapes from prison, how exactly does he do it?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Purportedly El Chapo's first escape from prison in 2001 occurred when he hid in a laundry cart underneath clothes that a prison employee wheeled out the front gate of the prison.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: We heard an alternative theory to that that he paid off the prison officials and was actually dressed as a federal police officer and walked out the front.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the second time he gets out of prison, how does he do at that time?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Chapo's second prison escape is undoubtedly his most incredible and daring moment.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: That involved him being in a maximum security prison and having his people dig a tunnel that was a mile long from a house just outside the prison that went right up into the shower of his cell.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And he just ducks down and disappears.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Inside that tunnel, to have a little icing on the cake here, was a rail that had a motorcycle mounted on it.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So Chapo gets on this motorcycle and rides to freedom.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the U.S. authorities were trying very, very hard to capture him, especially toward the end from, say, 2008 to 2016 when he was caught finally.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: A dramatic capture.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The world's most wanted, most dangerous drug lord, Joaquin El Chapo Guzman, back in Mexican custody tonight.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Mexico's president announcing mission accomplished after a nearly six-month manhunt for the Sinaloa cartel chief.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how is he finally caught?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: It's ridiculous, but I have to say it.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He was given away by a very large taco order.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What? Where?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He was hiding out in a city called Los Mochis, which is on the coast of Sinaloa.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they knew that he was there somewhere, but they didn't know exactly where.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they followed one of his men who had gone out to get food for all these gunmen who were hiding out with Chapo at the safe house, tailed him back and figured out where he was.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Then this whole shootout ensued.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He almost escaped through a tunnel again, and they ultimately found him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do we have any idea how many tacos that guy ordered?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I'd like to know what type of tacos they were.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then, of course, there's Sean Penn.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Yeah, let's talk about Sean Penn.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How the hell is Sean Penn landing an El Chapo interview in the peak of all of this?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: El Chapo, while he was on the run after his second prison escape, had been interested in telling his life story.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He had contacted an actress named Kate del Castillo, who was the star of a Mexican soap opera, and said, I want you to produce a movie about my life.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And she contacts Sean Penn through mutual friends and says, we can go meet El Chapo.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And they go up to one of his mountain hideouts and while they're there, Sean Penn says, oh, by the way, I want to write an article about this for Rolling Stone magazine.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Because I think that there is, and there always has been in the American culture, a romance of the outlaw.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it turns out that the Mexican authorities had been surveilling both Cate del Castillo and El Chapo.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So El Chapo was captured and then Sean Penn's story in Rolling Stone came out a few days later.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I see him as one man with the imagination and perhaps the entrepreneurial drive that he had.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Attached it to something that is experienced in its harvesting and selling in a very different way than it is experienced in its usage.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Should, like, the U.S. Marshals have arrested Sean Penn when he got back into the United States for, like, coordinating with El Chapo?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I think if anything, he'd be charged with crimes against journalism.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: El Chapo being on trial in Brooklyn, in New York, in a sense, makes good sense because his work, his empire, extended up, right?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I mean, the hub of his United States operations was Chicago.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Probably some of his drugs are making it all the way up to Canada, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We heard testimony that he had business extensively in Vancouver supplying methamphetamine, heroin, cocaine.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And he was definitely supplying significant amounts of cocaine to New York.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: We've heard testimony about warehouses that belonged to Chapo that were seized in Queens and New Jersey, where they found hundreds and hundreds of kilos of cocaine that belonged to Chapo and the Sinaloa cartel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Keegan, you live in New York.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: I imagine you've met a cocaine user or two in your time there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The vice office is in Williamsburg, so certainly I have encountered a cocaine user or two in my time in New York City.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: And you know, just to be real here for a second, I have friends who buy fair trade coffee, organic tomatoes.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: They won't buy a car because of the toll on the environment, but they don't ever ask questions about where their drugs come from, about where their white powder at the dance party comes from.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I just wonder, like, how do they fit into this story?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: At the end of the day, if there was no demand for drugs in the United States, there would be no cartels to supply those drugs.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: U.S. consumers of drugs are ultimately the ones who are responsible for the drug trade.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Chapo and every other Mexican trafficker is just supplying a product that they know will get them money from the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sitting in that courtroom and seeing his trial, do you think it'll change a thing?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: The most compelling argument I've heard in favor of saying that this changes something is that Chapo for many years was sort of the face of impunity.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Like he can get away with it because he can buy off whoever he needs to buy off.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's so powerful that he can't be brought to justice.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in the sense that bringing El Chapo to the United States and convicting him shows that no one is above the law, I think there is something to be said for that.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: On the flip side, there is no change in terms of the supply of drugs in the United States.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: So I think that there's a symbolic value in convicting him and him being sentenced to life in prison as seems inevitable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in terms of practical impact, is this making any dent?
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: No.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: Keegan Hamilton writes about drugs and crime for Vice News.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you want more El Chapo, you'll want to follow Keegan's work.
--:-- Keegan Hamilton: He's sitting in the courtroom every day until this is over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's making a podcast about it. It's called Chapo.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram for him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This one's called Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: HelloFresh has a fresh offer for 2019.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's to get $80 off your first month of food delivery and recipe delivery to your house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You go to HelloFresh.com slash Explained80.
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