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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bill Gates. Microsoft. Billionaire. Divorcee? Who cares? Bill and Melinda Gates have about an $150 billion fortune that is, you know, largely in the public interest. What happens to that is in the public interest. Teddy Schleifer cares. He writes about billionaires for Recode.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: There's a lot of people out there who depend on Bill and Melinda Gates. Even if they might not know it, Bill and Melinda Gates are shaping their world in a way that probably if you or I got divorced, it wouldn't affect anybody else. We'd have to get married first, Teddy. Okay, okay. We'll do that first. Are you married?
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Sorry, I made it a session. No, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. Okay, perfect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Somewhere along the way, Bill Gates got this reputation as a good billionaire, which was surprising to some probably because Microsoft had a reputation for being kind of mean, right? Right. If you go back to the 1990s, let's roll back the clock. Homer, Bill Gates is here. Bill Gates? Billionaire computer nerd, Bill Gates? Gates was probably seen not that differently than people like Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos was today. You know, a great sort of avatar of capitalism for good and for evil.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So to lots of people, Gates was unfairly depriving the market of competition. Your internet ad was brought to my attention, but I can't figure out what, if anything, CompuGlobal HyperMegaNet does. So rather than risk competing with you, I've decided simply to buy you out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Microsoft was being sued as a possible monopolist. The Justice Department has charged Microsoft with engaging in anti-competitive and exclusionary practices designed to maintain its monopoly. Gates had this reputation of being the arrogant tech billionaire. Forcing Microsoft to include Netscape's competing software in our operating system is like requiring Coca-Cola to include three cans of Pepsi in every six-pack it sells.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And so the Bill Gates of, let's say, 2000, which is when he steps down as CEO of Microsoft, is not the good billionaire. It's not a good Bill Gates. And that sort of is a turning point in Gates' life. So Gates begins to spend more and more of his time on philanthropy. just to give you a sense of like how quickly his fortunes change. In 2005, Gates is knighted by Queen Elizabeth. And, you know, he becomes Times Person of the Year at some point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He starts spending more and more of his work kind of traveling the world almost like a pseudo-diplomat to the point where I think, honestly, today if you talk with people who are younger, they might not even know that Bill Gates was like the CEO of Microsoft. They just might just only know him through his profile as this king.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Well, it was gratifying that the dream of software that I had basically came true. And now I get to give it away. I know we'll get to it, but I think the kids these days know him as the guy who invented the coronavirus. Right. But putting that aside, what kind of charities does Gates get involved with? Bill Gates' main charitable entity is called the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Melinda Gates, of course, is his soon-to-be ex-wife.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Their main areas of focus have been on U.S. education reform, public health, specifically like disease eradication, things like polio in Africa. The Gates Foundation has a $50 billion endowment. It's the biggest charity in the United States. It gives away $5 billion a year. Again, record-setting.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: But a lot of Gates' work and a lot of his influence comes from sort of, I guess, what you could classify as his soft power. You know, Gates is a celebrity and he's able to get other people to do things because he's Bill Gates, right? So in 2006, for instance, Warren Buffett pledges to donate most of his fortune to the Gates Foundation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In 2010, Bill and Melinda Gates started the Giving Pledge, which listeners may have vaguely heard of. It's this promise from billionaires to donate their money to charity. The Gates have already committed to giving 95 percent of their wealth away. Warren Buffett 99%. So it's another example of Gates having the power of his own example, right? I'm doing this. You should do it too.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So I think a lot of the Gates influence isn't just what Gates and his wife Melinda can do themselves, but it's what they can convince other rich people to do and follow them in their example. Well, it's interesting about this list of people who have signed under the given place, including a lot of people we know who are very famous, George Lucas and Michael Bloomberg and many others.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's spreading around the world. And Gates has gotten a ton of airtime to talk about public health during the pandemic right Over the last year Gates has been one of the loud voices about the coronavirus especially early on in the pandemic when there was sort of this vacuum in leadership Gates was on TV, it seemed like every day, you know?
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Is there any reason we, with all our resources in this country, why we are the worst off country in the world right now with the most deaths and cases? Well, the United States has had a tough time. You know, we're not as tough on contact tracing or enforcing quarantine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gates was speaking about the problems of possible pandemics, you know, five years ago. So I would say, you know, Gates' real reputation comes from his work on public health. And over the last year, he's been front and center in U.S.'s and the world's COVID response. You know, the health experts and others like myself are saying, hey, let's not lose sight of this.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: But putting that aside, what happens to that is in the public interest. What happens to Bill and Melinda Gates' divorce is in the public interest. Some breaking news on Bill and Melinda Gates. Just moments ago, the pair tweeting that they are filing for divorce.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bill Gates, I'm just reading from his Twitter here. You wouldn't know it from the CNN hits or, you know, the foundation press releases. But, you know, the Gates drama has been going on behind the scenes since seems like at least 2019, maybe earlier on.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: We're actually learning now about a lot of events that happened a couple of years ago. So the Gates has announced their divorce. I think it's now about two or three weeks ago. And there's, of course, a lot of uncertainty. What does it mean for, you know, this guy who's been at the center of the coronavirus that he's getting a divorce? I mean, at the least it's distracting. for a lot of the charities or, frankly, just the nonprofit industry that depends on the Gates Foundation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's understandably a lot of concern. You know, there's parallels here with a mom and dad and kids. But in this situation, the kids are, you know, nonprofits and drug makers and even governments around the globe. And pretty quickly, that concern seems to be displaced by a different one. Right. This morning, there are new bombshell allegations about Bill Gates and the billionaire's behavior at Microsoft.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: The Wall Street Journal is reporting Melinda Gates had been consulting with lawyers since 2019. There have been a series of stories in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Daily Beast, that all suggest there's more to the story. And it all suggests that this was not an easy divorce, to put it mildly, and that there's reasonable concerns about what this means for maybe what you could call America's most important marriage.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, let's talk about the ugliness. How ugly? I don't know. I mean, maybe I'd put it at like an eight on a one to 10 scale. Let's start with Jeffrey Epstein. So Epstein is a convicted sex offender, right, who eventually was found dead in federal custody.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And Epstein had cultivated relationships with wealthy people like Bill Gates. The Wall Street Journal reporting that Melinda Gates was concerned over her husband's relationship with Epstein going back many years. It seems that Melinda and Bill Gates actually met with Jeffrey Epstein back in 2013.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's according to a source that we spoke with. So we knew at the time that the Epstein revelations came out, you know, a little over a year, a year and a half ago, we knew that Gates and Epstein had a relationship. Right. That, you know, they had met maybe a few times to talk about charity.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Gates eventually apologized, said it was a mistake to kind of legitimize Epstein as a figure in philanthropy. But the latest reporting, which, again, to be clear, the Gates folks deny pretty vociferously, suggests the Gates-Epstein relationship was more extensive than we initially thought.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What really matters is that this is reportedly a factor in Melinda Gates's divorce from Bill Gates. She expressed her frustration to Bill Gates and really didn't feel comfortable with the relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, especially since Melinda Gates is a global advocate for women and girls.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And it was already known that Jeffrey Epstein, you know, had his issues. So these reports begin coming out about Gates and Epstein in late 2019. And that's around the same time that Melinda Gates starts meeting with divorce attorneys.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And while we may never know what exactly transpired between Bill Gates and Jeffrey Epstein, the fact that Melinda Gates is taking issue with it and making it part of these divorce proceedings certainly make it appear that she as well questioned what Bill Gates could gain from hanging out with a known sex criminal.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: 100%. And this isn't the only thing that's being reported here, right? Correct. There's also reports that Bill Gates had an affair with a Microsoft employee that ended up leading to an investigation by Microsoft's board of directors.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In 2000, Gates had an affair with a Microsoft employee. Gates has admitted that. And what we know is that in 2019, the Microsoft board of directors investigated the affair. And Gates ended up leaving the Microsoft board.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Of course, they didn't go into detail on why exactly at the time, but it's, you know, it was a serious enough infraction that the board of directors was investigating him and Gates at least left amid that investigation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this wasn't like an isolated incident? You know, the New York Times reported that Gates had, you know, a series of kind of, I guess, flirtations or approaches to young women at Microsoft, even at the Gates Foundation as well.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So, no, it does not appear to be an isolated incident. Has Bill Gates or have representatives of Bill Gates said anything about these allegations? So Gates admits that the affair happened. He says that the affair with the Microsoft employee was not a factor in his leaving the board, which, again, was voluntary technically.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, he disputes some of the particular elements of the relationships and how they've been characterized by the Times and other outlets. They definitely playing defense right now And Melinda Gates hasn't said anything herself
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Where does this leave Bill Melinda the foundation all of it Where this leaves Bill Gates as of today is you know he still has you know billion So I'm sure he can stomach a few bad headlines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The foundation, you know, still has $50 billion in assets. I think everything I said a few minutes ago about it being America's most important philanthropy, still true. But ultimately, for the first time really in two decades, since 2000, when Gates was leaving CEO of Microsoft, Gates is in the barrel.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And in the meantime, it certainly invites more and more scrutiny on who Bill Gates is, who billionaire philanthropists are in general, and kind of whether all the reputations are fairly earned.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime. Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features, such as free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, so much more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals. Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: You can work on your financial goals through Chime today. You can open an account in two minutes at Chime.com slash explained. That's Chime.com slash explained. Chime feels like progress. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancor Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file. These apply at out-of-network ATMs, bank ranking, and number of ATMs according to U.S. News and World Report 2023. Chime checking account required.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So, Teddy, the fact that we're talking about what is usually a very private affair between a married couple is pretty striking. But what does it say that this divorce is getting as much attention as it is?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, over the last few years, especially, lots of progressives and some conservatives have been trying to reckon with how much power, you know, not just the 1%, but like the 0.01% or the 0.001% have gained, especially over the last year when obviously lots of people lost things.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So what this divorce, I think, highlights in a very neat and kind of tidied up way is just how influential billionaire philanthropists have become. That, you know, a private divorce, which is something that, you know, we would not be writing articles about and making podcasts about, this reverberates, this matters, it has global implications.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that, in a lot of ways, is pretty striking that a private matter can become a public matter just inherently given the people involved. So that, in a lot of ways, shows Bill and Melinda Gates' influence in a nutshell.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And this isn't the first time in recent memory that a tech billionaire has gotten divorced even, right? Correct. Not even a Seattle tech billionaire. Amazon founder Jeff Bezos will likely still be the world's richest man after his divorce from his wife Mackenzie is finalized.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, under the settlement, she will receive nearly $36 billion in Amazon stock. Forbes reports that Bezos' wealth is estimated at nearly $150 billion. So Jeff Bezos in 2019, folks may remember, got divorced from then-McKenzie Bezos.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And, you know, their fortune was split up a couple different ways. And, you know, to your point about how these things can matter, Mackenzie Scott, who formerly was known as Mackenzie Bezos, in the two years after that divorce, she's become a huge player in sort of American nonprofits.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shortly after the settlement, Scott pledged to give more than half of her fortune to charity, joining other billionaires in the Giving Pledge, a movement created by Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And, you know, frankly, in kind of American policy, she's given away six billion dollars of her Amazon fortune. She signed the giving pledge basically immediately after divorcing from Jeff Bezos.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But she wasn't doing any of that stuff when she was married to Jeff Bezos. So it sort of shows the act two that can unfold after the divorce can be important. And that's why the divorce itself is important.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And getting back to Bill and Melinda, how much of a problem is it for the countries and the people who rely on the Gates Foundation? that its leader is embroiled in this scandal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So maybe I'm, you know, being Pollyannish about this, but I think that the Gates Foundation ultimately is going to be fine. You know, obviously it's awkward, right, for folks who work there. But there's $50 billion that is set aside in the Gates Foundation, irrevocable. I don't think that's going anywhere.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: I think that ultimately this is going to affect Bill and Melinda Gates more than it's going to affect the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. You know, the soft power that Bill and Melinda Gates have on the world stage comes from them being together often. You know, they're at events together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It comes from their reputations as sort of these pristine, you know, humanitarians. Welcome back to The Late Show, folks. My next guests tonight are renowned philanthropists who lead the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation Please welcome Bill and Melinda Gates
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And I think that is definitely jeopardized by the last few weeks So I'm feeling pretty good if I'm a Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation employee. I'm not feeling good if I am someone who depends on Bill and Melinda Gates' sort of public profile to enact change around the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, should this whole scandal and the situation with this divorce make us feel any differently about depending on the benevolence of billionaires and their philanthropy? You know, it certainly shows that what you just described comes with trade-offs, which I think lots of people necessarily don't want to talk about.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: You sort of assume Bill and Melinda Gates devoting their fortune to charity is like an unalloyed good thing, you know, capital G, capital T, good thing. But there are trade-offs, right? I mean, reasonably, if Bill and Melinda Gates were not as magnanimous, were not as generous, were not as important, their divorce wouldn't really matter as much.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the fact that, you know, billionaires give money away and kind of assert this private power in public matters ends up making their private lives much more important than they would be otherwise. Now, do you want to live in the alternative world where like Bill and Melinda Gates, you know, spend their $150 billion on, you know, five jillion yachts? Like, I don't know if you want to live in that world either.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: But I think, you know, lots of interesting questions are about the trade-offs, right? And this is one of them. I mean, we've touched on this on the show before, but the pandemic was particularly good to billionaires, right? So wealth inequality is at a 50-year high.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, during the pandemic, billionaires have gotten wealthier, especially tech billionaires. And there's a whole host of reasons why that's true, right? People like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg are owners of companies that have become more and more essential during the pandemic.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So ultimately, if Amazon was avoidable three years ago, it sort of became unavoidable, no? Like over the last 12 to 18 months. And the pandemic created this paradox in a lot of ways, because we hear all the time about American billionaires' generosity over the pandemic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, I think ultimately when figures come out on charitable contributions during 2020, it's going to be pretty impressive. But at the same time that billionaires are giving away more and more money than ever before, they're also becoming wealthier than ever before.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: And I feel like we need to understand the numerator and the denominator, basically their generosity and their total assets when kind of thinking about what this has been like for the wealthiest. Is there an argument to be made that instead of depending on the post-divorce benevolence of billionaires or the pre-divorce benevolence of billionaires, that we should just be taxing these people more?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It seems to be increasingly an argument that at least Democrats are making in Congress. Sure. I think you should be able to become a billionaire and a millionaire, but pay your fair share. So the Biden administration is out with, you know, a host of tax increases that would hit people like Bill and Melinda Gates or Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg pretty aggressively.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: You know, there are proposals that would go even further, things like wealth taxes that have become popular on the left and frankly popular with kind of lots of Americans. And if billionaires paid more in taxes, the question is, would that mean that Bill and Melinda Gates would have less power?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There would certainly still be a lot of money left over for philanthropy, right? I mean, let's just kind of take a sense of the fortunes that Bill and Melinda Gates have here. There's $50 billion in the Gates Foundation and another $100, $150 billion outside of the Gates Foundation. That's not going away anytime soon.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: You know, obviously, the counter argument, Sean, to kind of that is, well, does the government work perfectly, right? Would you prefer that polio eradication efforts that we described the Gates Foundation working on, Would you prefer that would be run by the UN or some sort of big international bureaucracy that's subject to global politics?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Maybe you wouldn't. But let me frame the question in terms of American education policy, right? Would you rather Bill and Melinda Gates not be involved in U.S. education policy? I think some people would say, yeah, I would.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: So it really, to me, shows, look, I mean, the debate over billionaire philanthropy is going to rage as long as there's more billionaires and more philanthropy. and lots of the interesting questions to me are in the gray zone, are in the questions about the trade-offs, the questions about, you know, the alternatives and, you know, the taxation versus the generosity debate, I think really hinges on kind of the trade-offs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Taking a step back and thinking about this sort of rise and fall and rise again and fall again of Bill Gates, I mean, you write about billionaires all the time. was the mistake people made believing that there was such thing as a good billionaire versus a bad billionaire to begin with.
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: I mean, it's not like these people are heroes. They're literally business leaders who are in it for the money, right? I do find sort of the good billionaire, bad billionaire labeling awfully simplistic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ultimately, these are people, right, with their own contradictions, their own absurdities, their own complications. Was Bill Gates the good billionaire five minutes ago and the bad guy in 1999? It's the same dude, right?
--:-- Teddy Schleifer: Ultimately, I try to approach these as people. Obviously, they're very privileged people. They're very unique people. In some ways, sometimes you forget that they're people. But I think in a lot of ways, the fact that they're getting divorced shows their humanity, that they are just regular people, just more important than us two.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No arguments there. Teddy, thank you so much. You bet.
