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--:-- Noelle King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Josh Keating. Josh writes about foreign policy and national security for Vox.
--:-- Josh Keating: Thanks for having me, Noelle.
--:-- Noelle King: So, President Trump has been talking about buying Greenland for quite some time now. So this is something that goes back to the end of the first Trump administration.
--:-- Josh Keating: Yeah, this was an idea I started talking about in 2019, and it seems sort of even more random, if that's possible, the first time around.
--:-- Noelle King: This is something that's been discussed for many years. Harry Truman had the idea of Greenland. I had the idea. Other people have had the idea. It goes back into the early 1900s.
--:-- Josh Keating: And this is an idea that was just sort of rejected out of hand by the government of Denmark. And, you know, the prime minister said, you know, she hoped that he was joking.
--:-- Noelle King: He probably wasn't because he canceled a visit to Denmark and a sort of fiddick about it.
--:-- Josh Keating: Now, Denmark, I looked forward to going, but I thought that the prime minister's statement that it was absurd, that it was an absurd idea, it was nasty.
--:-- Noelle King: But, you know, it is something that he's now revived. Greenland, instead of buying it. Finland? Greenland. Oh, Greenland. Greenland is a wonderful place.
--:-- Josh Keating: We need it for international security.
--:-- Noelle King: This first came up the second time around when he announced his pick for Ambassador Denmark, which is Ken Howery, who's the co-founder of PayPal.
--:-- Josh Keating: And basically in that announcement, Trump described Greenland as an absolute necessity for the U.S.
--:-- Noelle King: We need Greenland very badly. You look at the Russian ships, the China ships, they're all over the place.
--:-- Josh Keating: And since then, it's just sort of doubled down on it.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, I think it's sort of a pattern with Trump when he gets sort of these ideas in his head and he sort of floats them.
--:-- Josh Keating: And then they get a strong reaction. Then he sort of doubles down on it.
--:-- Noelle King: And things really got a lot more serious at a press conference at Mar-a-Lago where a reporter asked him if he would rule out using military force to take Greenland.
--:-- Josh Keating: What is the strategy? I can't assure you, you're talking about Panama and Greenland.
--:-- Noelle King: No, I can't assure you on either of those two.
--:-- Josh Keating: But I can say this, we need them for economic security.
--:-- Noelle King: That's another level when you're effectively threatening to use military force against a U.S. ally, a member of NATO.
--:-- Josh Keating: Has he explained why it's an absolute necessity for our security?
--:-- Noelle King: Well, there's a couple of things going on here.
--:-- Josh Keating: I mean, there has been an increased emphasis in U.S. national security on the Arctic.
--:-- Noelle King: As Arctic sea ice melts, there are all these shipping lanes that are newly accessible, allowing more shipping traffic through the Arctic Circle.
--:-- Josh Keating: A lot of natural resources are more accessible than they used to be.
--:-- Noelle King: Russia has been building military bases in the Arctic for quite a while.
--:-- Josh Keating: China is increasingly, you know, though it's not an Arctic country, it describes itself somewhat implausibly as a near Arctic state.
--:-- Noelle King: And they've been building up their commercial interests in the Arctic as well.
--:-- Josh Keating: So there is an increased focus on this.
--:-- Noelle King: The U.S. is already an Arctic nation because of Alaska, but evidently Trump believes we need even more Arctic coastline.
--:-- Josh Keating: And then, you know, beyond the sort of national security piece, I think there's an economic factor in here as well.
--:-- Noelle King: Greenland has significant amounts of deposits of metals like lithium, which is important for building batteries needed for the green transition, and also rare earth elements, which are also important for green technology.
--:-- Josh Keating: But right now, the global supply is almost entirely controlled by China.
--:-- Noelle King: And so I think there's this idea that, you know, if we could control Greenland, we would have access to these minerals, which are now going to be more accessible because the ice that covers about 80% of Greenland's landmass is melting.
--:-- Josh Keating: And that'll help us reduce dependence on China and Chinese supply chains for these critical minerals.
--:-- Noelle King: We've covered how China has most of the rare earth minerals.
--:-- Josh Keating: This could prove to be a real problem for the United States.
--:-- Noelle King: So all right Greenland has them has a lot maybe even
--:-- Josh Keating: Why does the United States need to control Greenland to get the rare earth minerals? Like is there an argument that the United States could just enter into an agreement with Greenland to buy them?
--:-- Josh Keating: I mean, the thing about this is in talking about this idea, I don't want to dismiss the idea that Greenland is strategically important or that we shouldn't be paying attention to Greenland.
--:-- Noelle King: That doesn't mean it has to be part of the United States already.
--:-- Josh Keating: There are already American companies investing in Greenland's minerals.
--:-- Noelle King: A band of billionaires from Jeff Bezos to Michael Bloomberg and Bill Gates is all betting that below the surface of the hills and valleys on Greenland's Disco Island and New Suek Peninsula, there's enough nickel, cobalt and copper to power hundreds of millions of electric vehicles.
--:-- Josh Keating: They are essential for several disruptive innovations, including global energy transformation and also vital for some armaments industries.
--:-- Noelle King: And if you talk about the strategic importance, the U.S. already has a military base in the country.
--:-- Josh Keating: Pitufik Space Base, which is formerly known as Thule Air Base, is the northernmost U.S. military base in the world.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's also an important part of the U.S. missile early warning system.
--:-- Josh Keating: So if Russia were launching ICBMs at the U.S., God forbid, it might be thanks to this base in Greenland that we got at least a few minutes of warning about it.
--:-- Noelle King: And so, you know, this shows there are already U.S. interests there.
--:-- Josh Keating: Denmark is a close U.S. ally.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, a few years ago, a Chinese company wanted to buy a former naval base in Greenland.
--:-- Josh Keating: And Denmark blocked it in part because, you know, they want to maintain good relationships with the U.S.
--:-- Noelle King: So there's, I would say, an advantage to having these territories that were not responsible for governing, but that are under the control of a close U.S. ally.
--:-- Josh Keating: And there's not really a good reason that I can see why it has to actually be part of U.S. territory.
--:-- Noelle King: In his inaugural address, we heard Donald Trump talk provocatively about the Panama Canal also.
--:-- Josh Keating: And above all, China is operating the Panama Canal.
--:-- Noelle King: And we didn't give it to China.
--:-- Josh Keating: We gave it to Panama and we're taking it back.
--:-- Noelle King: Are these of a piece?
--:-- Josh Keating: And what are they telling us?
--:-- Noelle King: What are they indicating to us about Donald Trump's foreign policy over the next four years, if anything?
--:-- Josh Keating: Well, I think Donald Trump has this sort of different idea of sovereignty and self-determination and immovability of borders than, you know, maybe the last century of U.S. presidents.
--:-- Noelle King: I think there's been a real bias among successive U.S. governments dating back to World War I, maybe, that, you know, current borders should be preserved as they are.
--:-- Josh Keating: I mean, in that period, most of the time borders have changed.
--:-- Noelle King: It's been a matter of, you know, former colonies becoming independent.
--:-- Josh Keating: Countries don't just trade territory back and forth like they used to.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, more than half of the U.S. territory was actually paid for.
--:-- Josh Keating: I mean, if you look at the Louisiana Purchase or the Alaska Purchase or a treaty that ended the U.S.-Mexican War.
--:-- Noelle King: So, you know, there's sort of 19th century precedent for this.
--:-- Josh Keating: But in the 20th century, it's generally been that, you know, the U.S. tries to preserve existing borders as they are.
--:-- Noelle King: Donald Trump has a different idea of this.
--:-- Josh Keating: During his first term, we saw him recognize Israeli sovereignty over the Golan Heights.
--:-- Noelle King: The state of Israel took control of the Golan Heights in 1967 to safeguard its security from external threats.
--:-- Josh Keating: Something at the time almost no other country was doing.
--:-- Noelle King: He recognized the Moroccan claims over Western Sahara.
--:-- Josh Keating: This is also something rejected by most of the international community.
--:-- Noelle King: So, you know, I think he's somebody who, like, sees borders and sort of national sovereignty in a much more transactional way.
--:-- Josh Keating: And, you know, another concern a lot of people have brought up in the past few weeks is, does this sort of legitimate Russia's territorial claims?
--:-- Noelle King: That if Russia claims that Ukraine is within its legitimate sphere of interests, or China says the same thing about Taiwan, does threatening to use military force to back up these claims, does that just sort of give those countries a pass?
--:-- Josh Keating: We also heard Donald Trump talk about... Changing the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.
--:-- Noelle King: And it brings up an interesting point, right?
--:-- Josh Keating: So Senator Elizabeth Warren comes out and she says, this is nonsense.
--:-- Noelle King: This gentleman is trying to distract us from, for example, his controversial cabinet picks.
--:-- Josh Keating: Why is Donald Trump doing this?
--:-- Noelle King: And I think the answer is, let's have a big distraction and several more questions so we don't spend more time on Pete Hegseth, the nominee to be the head of the Department of Defense.
--:-- Josh Keating: Is there something to the idea that as Trump is wont to do, he is just spouting nonsense?
--:-- Noelle King: He often sort of floats these ideas and gauges the reaction to him.
--:-- Josh Keating: He seems to be serious about it, I don't know if he started off as serious about it but he he seems to be now so I'm not really treating it as a joke.
--:-- Noelle King: You know it's sort of funny, it's there's sort of like a monkey's paw situation where like for years we've been hearing experts in Washington say the U.S should pay more attention to the western hemisphere devote more resources to its backyard uh rather than you know getting embroiled in these conflicts overseas.
--:-- Josh Keating: And Trump seems to be doing that.
--:-- Noelle King: He seems to have a pretty strong interest from Panama to Greenland to even Canada.
--:-- Josh Keating: So probably not what a lot of those experts had in mind.
--:-- Noelle King: But I think that Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a real kind of shock to the international system.
--:-- Josh Keating: If just because borders don't change by force very often anymore.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, that's one thing you can say, had gone by the wayside.
--:-- Josh Keating: I mean, not that there haven't been wars over the last 20, 30 years, but countries actually trying to conquer their neighbors is something much more rare, doing it successfully even rarer.
--:-- Noelle King: And so, you know, when Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, John Kerry, who was the Secretary of State at the time, accused them of acting in a 19th century fashion.
--:-- Josh Keating: And so I think that now, you know, some of those 19th century ideas seem to be coming back in a bit.
--:-- Noelle King: And I think I still think it a very long shot that this actually happens if only because Greenland is not really Denmark property to give away
--:-- Josh Keating: If we want to take over Greenland the people we should be negotiating with it's not Denmark, it's the people of Greenland.
--:-- Noelle King: And, you know, I suppose the U.S. has bought territory in the past.
--:-- Josh Keating: Ironically, the last significant time the U.S. bought territory was from Denmark.
--:-- Noelle King: We bought what was then the Danish West Indies, which is now the U.S. Virgin Islands.
--:-- Josh Keating: But things are different today.
--:-- Noelle King: We live in a world not of territorial empires.
--:-- Josh Keating: We live in a world where national sovereignty is based on popular legitimacy.
--:-- Noelle King: And the people who live in a place should have some control over who governs them.
--:-- Josh Keating: If Donald Trump is really serious about this and wants to put a package together that the people of Greenland can actually decide on, then I don't really see why he couldn't do that.
--:-- Noelle King: But, you know, from the way he's talking about it, it's less like that.
--:-- Josh Keating: And he sort of discusses it like a real estate deal.
--:-- Noelle King: He said things like, if I'm developing a property and somebody else controls a corner on that property, I want to even it out.
--:-- Josh Keating: So I don't think he's really been thinking through the sort of full implications that this isn't just buying a piece of land, that there are people who live here, if some say, and who governs them.
--:-- Noelle King: Josh Keating, you can read him at Vox.com.
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--:-- Noelle King: Coming up, Greenland tries to keep calm and carry on. So much more.
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--:-- Noelle King: Welcome back to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Naaja Nathanielsen, the Minister of Business, Trade, Mineral Resources, Justice and Gender Equality in Greenland.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Noelle King: So, I'm imagining that many of our listeners will not have ever been to Greenland. Can you tell me a bit about what it's like?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Well, I think many people who come here are surprised of two things.
--:-- Noelle King: One thing is, of course, the beauty of the nature.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Everything is vast and huge. The mountains, the fjords and all that.
--:-- Noelle King: But another thing I think that struck a lot of people is it's quite modern, really.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: I think oftentimes you think of Greenland as something maybe where few people live and there's not a lot of activity.
--:-- Noelle King: But our cities look like many others.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: It will be recognizable for many people.
--:-- Noelle King: And what kind of people are Greenlanders?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Well, we are Inuit. We are indigenous people.
--:-- Noelle King: So we consist of, I think, 90% of the population.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: So most people here are Greenlanders with Inuit roots.
--:-- Noelle King: We do have a lot of people from the Nordic countries and from Asia as well.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: But primarily, the population is made up by Inuit.
--:-- Noelle King: Okay, so we have a beautiful country with very modern cities.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: If someone were planning a visit and wanted to know what was really important, what should they know?
--:-- Noelle King: Well, they should know that Greenland is a modern democracy, that we have our own government, our own parliament.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We have a mineral sector. We have tourism. We have a fishing industry.
--:-- Noelle King: So these are our primary revenues of income.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And also you should know that the Greenlandic culture is very vibrant and rich, even though we're only 55,000 people.
--:-- Noelle King: So there's a lot of music, a lot of plays, a lot of cultural activity, which is quite impressive for such a small population.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We were reminded in the first half of our show that Donald Trump has actually been talking about Greenland in provocative ways since 2019.
--:-- Noelle King: Can I ask what you thought when you first heard him single your country out?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Well, in the beginning, I think we were kind of surprised about the offer to buy Greenland and has, of course, been trying to figure out what is that about?
--:-- Noelle King: What is the story behind that?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And what do you understand is the story behind that?
--:-- Noelle King: We understand that it is a measure of national security for the Americans.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And to some extent we understand very much that Greenland is part of the interest sphere of the U when it comes to national security
--:-- Noelle King: That is why we have a military base in Greenland
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And we do understand that this is important for the monitoring of the Arctic as well
--:-- Noelle King: So to some extent, we agree to what is being said, but that does not follow that we want to be Americans.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: It just follows that we understand that Greenland has an importance for the U.S. in terms of national security.
--:-- Noelle King: You are a government minister, and I understand that diplomacy is something that is very important here.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: But I sort of put the shoe on the other foot, and I think as an American, if another country was talking about buying the United States, I personally would be a bit offended, to be perfectly honest with you.
--:-- Noelle King: Yes, but we are offended.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And I think what you also need to understand, as Inuits, we take things calmly.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, it doesn't help the situation by panicking.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: So we're not panicking, but we're trying to understand what is this about and trying to work with it.
--:-- Noelle King: The U.S. is a very big country compared to Greenland.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We're only very few thousand people.
--:-- Noelle King: So, of course, when the U.S. says something, we need to take it seriously.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We understand that sometimes politicians talk big game and has to maybe deliver a message that is maybe more meant for an audience within the country.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm just saying, well, we are in the receiving end and we do not like the rhetoric.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We don't appreciate it, but we want to work with the message being sent.
--:-- Noelle King: We want to figure out how can we talk about this in a sensible manner.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Sure.
--:-- Noelle King: And being important in a strategic sense, in an economic sense, is never really a bad thing.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Often it's a very, very good thing for a country.
--:-- Noelle King: Which other countries have... All depending.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Fair enough.
--:-- Noelle King: Which other countries have expressed interest in acquiring Greenland?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: I think no other country has decided interest in acquiring Greenland, but we do feel that there's more emphasis on the Greenlandic minerals, for instance, these past couple of years on a very sad backdrop.
--:-- Noelle King: Because due to the climate crisis and the war in Ukraine and the pandemic that showed probably to some extent faulty supply chains, well, there's been a focus on where can we find minerals and mine them in a country that is responsible in terms of environment and governance.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And Greenland is a good fit in that way.
--:-- Noelle King: So we have been seeing a spur of interest that's not the same as that has really yet shown itself in a lot of investments from outside.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: But we are still lacking investments into the mineral sector, for instance.
--:-- Noelle King: Perhaps the message to President Trump is we would actually welcome American investment.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We would welcome American investment.
--:-- Noelle King: We actually made a deal with the former Trump administration in 2019, where we together explored some of our potentials and had some projects together.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And we have been trying for some time to get the Biden administration to prolong or expand that agreement.
--:-- Noelle King: So we are interested in doing business with the states.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Of course, that doesn't mean we want to be Americans, but we do want to work with the states in a business sense.
--:-- Noelle King: Donald Trump has said a handful of provocative things about Greenland, but perhaps one of the most provocative, at least from where I sit in the United States, is that he wouldn't rule out military force in trying to acquire Greenland.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: First, I guess, does that kind of talk make you nervous.
--:-- Noelle King: And second, how is the nation responding to something like that?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Well, of course, this makes people nervous.
--:-- Noelle King: We have kids as well that listen to the media and they say, what is going on? Is the state going to come and occupy us?
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: It's a very unfortunate rhetoric.
--:-- Noelle King: So this has caused my government to really try to convey to the public, do not panic.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We're trying to work through this and figure out what is it about.
--:-- Noelle King: Because no, I don't think that our ally would occupy us.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Of course not.
--:-- Noelle King: I don't expect that from an ally.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We are part of the Western Alliance.
--:-- Noelle King: We are part of NATO.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: We are a friend of the US.
--:-- Noelle King: We are a democracy.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And so is the US.
--:-- Noelle King: So we do expect that that won't be the case.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: What we're trying to do is look beyond that sort of rhetoric and see how can we work together after such a statement?
--:-- Noelle King: I do hear you saying something that I think is very important, which is Donald Trump does talk a lot.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And we learned in his first four years in office that sometimes he's very serious and sometimes he's actually just talking.
--:-- Noelle King: He is talking at times to distract from other things that he's doing.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Sometimes he's just sort of speaking extemporaneously and things slip out.
--:-- Noelle King: I think it's fair and factual to say both of those things.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Is there any sense that you have in your capacity that perhaps this is not all that serious? It's just talk.
--:-- Noelle King: I think there has been a genuine interest in Greenland for some time in America.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: So I think it's a fair assessment that he should be taking seriously about his desire to expand cooperation with Greenland in some form or other.
--:-- Noelle King: I think that is to be taken quite seriously.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And it's not only one person, as I understand it.
--:-- Noelle King: As I see it, it's a couple of people, a group of people, who has an interest in Greenland.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: And you can see that also there has been a bill proposed about acquiring Greenland.
--:-- Noelle King: It's important for the United States to assert itself and say, look, this is our doorstep.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: This is our area of operation.
--:-- Noelle King: And we are, quite frankly, the dominant predator.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Cop, if you will.
--:-- Noelle King: But it's important that we fight back against China and send them back to their own hemisphere.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: So I think this is not just one person saying something.
--:-- Noelle King: Of course, you always need to take your president serious when he says something, and we do too.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: That's the name of the game.
--:-- Noelle King: But I get a sense that there is something more than that than just talk.
--:-- Naaja Nathanielsen: Naya Nathanielsen. She's Greenland's Minister of Business, Trade, Mineral Resources, Justice and Gender Equality.
--:-- Avishay Artsy: Produced today's show.
--:-- Amina El-Sadi: Edited.
--:-- Andrea Kristinsdottir and Patrick Boyd: Are our engineers.
--:-- Laura Bullard: Is our Minister of Research.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Thank you.
