--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Six weeks ago, the biggest rappers in the world started fighting, but this weekend it went nuclear.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Disstracks were dropping left and right. We got a music video, a summer jam, a streaming record was broken. There was an international crowdsourced competition just to diss Drake.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is probably the last time you will see a rap beef on this scale.
--:-- Charles Holmes: When you think about the big rap beats, whether it's Tupac and Biggie, Nas, Jay, Drake and Pusha T, people have been waiting over a decade for Drake and Kendrick to stop with the veiled shots and finally punch each other in the mouth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that is what we definitely got this weekend. There's going to be some salty language. There's going to be salacious allegations. Kendrick Lamar Duckworth versus Aubrey Drake Graham coming up on Today Explained.
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--:-- Charles Holmes: Didn't know that. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Having a night out with your friends is awesome. Dealing with hangovers sucks. Meet Senorita, the THC-infused margarita that lets you skip the booze but keep the vibe.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Made with real fruit, organic agave, and Himalayan pink salt, every sip is like a mini getaway. No fillers, no hangovers, just full flavor and a better buzz.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sean Ramos firm here with Charles Holmes from the Ringer. Charles, how did all this get started?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Yeah, so people probably will not know this unless you've been very into rap, but there have been three rappers for the last decade plus that have been the biggest rappers in the genre, and we have dubbed them the big three: that is Drake, Kendrick, and J. Cole.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as every rapper, these rappers have just been in a tug of war that sometimes is a beef, but sometimes it's just a battle of dominance.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Drake is the pop star. He is the center that basically the music world revolves around. And then you have someone like Kendrick. Kendrick is the heart or he is the soul of hip hop. He's everything that when we think of like, what does hip hop mean? The rebellion, that's Kendrick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think over the years they've gone back and forth over, well, Drake, you use ghost writers and Drake being like, it doesn't matter. I'm way bigger than you, Kendrick. Sit down.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And it culminates on a song called First Person Shooter, where two of the big two, Drake and J. Cole, team up to basically rap about how great they are. Kendrick takes offense on this on a song called Like That, and essentially says, Hey, it's not the big three anymore. It's big me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Also, y'all guys are bums.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Drake comes back with a song called Push Ups, and then another song called Taylor Made. You better drop and give them 50. And then he hits Kendrick again with the help of some technology on TaylorMade. He's impersonating or cosplaying as one of Kendrick's lifelong heroes, Tupac, using AI.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Throughout this whole time, Kendrick is quiet. Drake is kind of needling him. It's like, yo, when are you going to drop? When are you going to drop? When are you going to drop?
--:-- Charles Holmes: And then it's like about a week ago, he drops, and he goes after Drake's entire life on Euphoria. And the beef very, very quickly gets ugly. And that's how you get to this weekend.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can you just take us through this past weekend?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Yeah. So we had already pretty much gotten the opening salvos from each artist. And at that point, you're just like, all right, this beef isn't over. But we're all kind of waiting to see what the next thing happens, and then Drake comes back with Family Matters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know what I mean? They hired a crisis management team to clean up the fact that you beat on your queen, and the picture you paint it ain't what it seems.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And in this song, he alleges some very scathing and potentially damaging things about Kendrick that have not been corroborated, reported, fact-checked, or whatever. He essentially says on that track that you guys think Kendrick is your savior, I'm alleging now that he hired a crisis PR firm to clean up the fact that he assaulted his wife, and that one of his very close friends and business partners is actually the father of one of his children.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So at that point, people on the internet are like, okay, this has gotten serious. The button has been pushed.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And quite literally, I don't even think it had been an hour yet. Kendrick steps on that record and drops Meet the Grams immediately.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Kendrick is alleging that Drake is surrounding himself with people in his camp that are accused of very heinous things and basically needling at Drake that he has an alleged propensity to go after young women and groom them.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And as rap beef tends to do, unfortunately, women, baby mothers, family, children are used in very gross ways to satiate the big egos of the two most popular rappers in the world right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then once we're like, all right, well, they've both done the thing, Kendrick arrives again with another song called Not Like Us.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Everybody at that one was like, these records are fine, but I wanted to shake some ass. And Kendrick's like, you want to know what you can shake some ass to right now? Me calling basically everybody in Drake's circle certified pedophiles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Trying to strike a chord and it probably a minor.
--:-- Charles Holmes: That a lot. Sorry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Also, these men are close to 40.
--:-- Charles Holmes: We should point out here that these two men are both alleging essentially the abuse of women.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are any women coming out and saying these men have abused me? Or is it all just them lobbing this sort of gossip, these rumors at each other?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Right now, no one has necessarily come out to corroborate any of this. But what I will say is the thing that people have to understand about rap beef is rap beef is not about truth that much. Rap beef is about who is the funniest or who will go low and will punch you the hardest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And a lot of the complaints that you will be seeing if you go on Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok is that some of this might be true. None of it might be true. But a lot of this is steeped in rumors that these are music industry rumors.
--:-- Charles Holmes: These are rumors that their fellow Stan armies have talked about. Like a lot of the groomer accusations, a lot of this is wrapped up in very gossipy headlines about when Drake was chatting with a Millie Bobby Brown or Billie Eilish before they were of age.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You and Drake? That's awesome. What advice does he give you? Like, what does he say?
--:-- Charles Holmes: About boys, he helps me. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great. He's wonderful. I love him. You know that stays in the text messages.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And both of those stars have come out being like, nothing inappropriate happened.
--:-- Charles Holmes: But if you are Kendrick Stan or whatever, you're just like, well, hey, we have all of this other supposed documentation of Drake dating women that are very young.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Once again, all of this stuff is hearsay. But rap stans don't care. They've never cared, and they never will.
--:-- Charles Holmes: One of the big allegations was Kendrick being like, yo, Drake is hiding another child. And Drake had to come out and be like, I am not hiding an 11-year-old child.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But actually, I planted the story of having an 11-year-old child to trick Kendrick.
--:-- Charles Holmes: We plotted for a weekend and we fed you the information. A daughter that's 11 years old, I bet he takes it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for people who are listening to this who know nothing of this, they're like, excuse me, the most popular rappers and artists on the world are arguing about potentially casting a fake illegitimate daughter to trick one rapper into rapping about it.
--:-- Charles Holmes: This is like the level of Bravo reality shenanigans that ruined my weekend.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're talking about how Drake has been painted in a certain light by Kendrick and how fans are sort of on board and happy to see that. Can you tell us about what that light is?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Because if you go on certain corners of the internet, especially Twitter, it feels like everyone is kind of piling on Drake right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Drake has been so dominant for so long, and I think the thing that's kind of undergirding a lot of this thing with Drake is because he's been dominant for so long, people want to see the number one guy get punched in the mouth.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And I also think that Drake has dropped a lot of music, and the quality of it has waned critically.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Consumption-wise, he's still the biggest rapper on the planet and the biggest pop star not named Taylor Swift.
--:-- Charles Holmes: So I think just human nature, you want to see the king get dragged off his throne.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it being somebody like Kendrick, who has won a Pulitzer, is of that type of rapper when we talk about Nas or Andre 3000, someone who we think, quote unquote, or is marketed as being more of the culture.
--:-- Charles Holmes: That's just a storyline that no one can pass up. Because what you're talking about here is authenticity.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And one of Kendrick's primary arguments here seems to be that Drake is just phony.
--:-- Charles Holmes: You run to Atlanta when you need a few dollars. No, you're not a colleague. You're a fucking colonizer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Honestly, one of the biggest things that Drake has had to overcome is that Drake is a formal child actor from Toronto who is half Jewish, has a white side of the family, and then has a black side of the family.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And I think it feeds into a lot of tricky narratives about Drake and cultural appropriation because Drake is a chameleon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He got as famous as he was being able to go to places like Atlanta. I don't even know what that's about.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Watch him out. Houston. From the H town. I say my name is Drazen. Or Jamaica. But my life's calling me from Unruly. Girl, I be. Or the UK. You know how the pagan chit-chat goes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I like R's and V's and O's. I don't really play no tic-tac-toe. And it's just dance hall, grime, whatever.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Drake has done it all. He is the globalization of hip hop in a human.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it also is tricky when you're just like, okay, what does it mean that a light-skinned rapper that looks the way that Drake looks gets to hold that perch?
--:-- Charles Holmes: It definitely does feed into a lot of who gets to be successful in Hollywood, in the music industry. How do they get successful?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think if you're Drake, you're just like, you guys have seen my father. I am a black man.
--:-- Charles Holmes: How has this beef turned into Drake, you're not black anymore, you can't say the n-word, we don't want to hear it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everybody being like, yeah, that's funny, yeah.
--:-- Charles Holmes: But once again, rap beefs are not about truth; they're not about nuance. It's about being like, yo mama is so fat, and everybody's like, oh yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why this beef between two of rap's titans might be the last of its kind when we're back on Today Explained.
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--:-- Charles Holmes: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
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--:-- Charles Holmes: By paying rent through Bilt, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
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--:-- Charles Holmes: You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining Built slash explained at That J dot com slash explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day, millions of customers engage with AI agents like me. We resolve queries fast. We work 24-7 and we're helpful, knowledgeable, and empathetic.
--:-- Charles Holmes: We're built to be the voice of the brands we serve. Sierra is the platform for building better, more human customer experiences with AI.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No hold music, no generic answers, no frustration. Visit sierra.ai to learn more.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork. If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Charles Holmes: I sometimes wonder how many of you are running businesses out there. I would love to know. Please email me, noelle at king dot com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With Upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in IT, web development, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Experts who are ready to help you take your business to the next level.
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--:-- Charles Holmes: Companies at every stage turn to Upwork to get things done and find more flexibility in the way they staff key projects and initiatives by accessing a global marketplace full of top talent.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Maybe in this song, you shouldn't start by saying...
--:-- Charles Holmes: Today Explained still here with Charles Holmes from The Ringer. Charles, I want to know where this battle fits into the pantheon of beef and hip-hop.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can you take us back? I mean, the beef that everyone, this is like a multi-million dollar industry, is Tupac and Biggie, East Coast, West Coast beef.
--:-- Charles Holmes: I think Tupac and Biggie was the point where the industry realized, oh no, we're not just selling records, we're selling magazines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is something that we're reporting on. There's documentary after documentary, book after book about this, because once again, there's layers to it.
--:-- Charles Holmes: There's personally what Tupac and Biggie were going through, but there's also like what the East Coast represents is the mecca of hip hop, the birthplace of it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the West Coast being like, yo, this is the home of gangster rap. We're pushing the genre forward.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And from that, I think a lot of beefs that we've gotten after that, whether it has been Jay-Z or Nas or Drake and Pusha T or Drake and Meek Bill, have kind of gone through those lines of sometimes it's about who's the best lyrical rapper.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sometimes it's about, well, you're the sellout and I'm the authentic one. Sometimes it's like, you're the old street dude. I'm the new street dude.
--:-- Charles Holmes: If you look at like Jay and Nas, that's kind of a perfect example of, does that beef happen if Notorious B.I.G. is still alive? Probably not.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But with Biggie out of the picture, you have a fight for, well, who is the king of New York?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Jay, who is this hyper-capitalist and is this pop star. And you have Nas, who at that point is like in the same way that Kendrick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nas fans look at him as this pure artist.
--:-- Charles Holmes: When we think of how we even talk about modern beef across culture, we say ether. That's from this beef.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That comes from a beef like Jay and Nas. We don't have time to get into all the politics of that, but that is kind of, once again, the modern rap beef of hyper-capitalist pop star more marketed as the artistic revolutionary.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Which probably sets up all the various beefs that Drake has had, because at the center of those beefs is always this sense that Drake is an outsider, Drake is a pop singer, Drake is a Canadian, Drake isn't authentic, Drake isn't hard, whatever it might be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So yeah, I think Drake has had a lot of beefs and he's like, one, I think Drake gets to the point he's at where there's a before and after he gets into a very, very contentious beef with Meek Mill, a Philadelphia rapper.
--:-- Charles Holmes: I was living in Philadelphia at the time. A lot of people did not think that Drake would win because Meek is a street rapper.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even at that time, you're still like, street rap wasn't the thing, but you're still like, Meek Mill is battle-tested. He's a battle rapper.
--:-- Charles Holmes: He was doing this in the streets, and Drake just outmaneuvers him and at that time, what Drake realizes is, yo, the nerds won this. This is meme culture, internet culture.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The internet was behind Drake. You love it, and you gotta get a world tour.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Is that a world tour? Your girl's tour? I know that you gotta be a thug for this ain't what she meant when she told you to open up more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Drake's songs become a lot tougher. You have records like if you're reading this, it's too late, or what we get like on songs like Mob Ties, where Drake is kind of like a faux criminal boss, where he's just like, well, I beat Meek Mill.
--:-- Charles Holmes: So then when Pusha T comes a few years later, Pusha T is a street rapper who's from a group called Clips, one of my favorite rappers of all time, talks about drug dealing a lot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Pusha T's like, you know what? I'm going to do what no one else has been able to do with Drake. I'm going to use the internet against him.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And on the story of Addy Don, he tells everybody Drake is hiding a child and for the first time, Pusha T does what Drake had been doing for years, which is using the internet, using TMZ and Boss Up and all of these things that had become the center of culture to say, hey, the only way I can beat Drake is at his own game.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can't outwrap him, but what I can do is say now every single time people talk about beef, they're like, remember the story of Addie Dawn when we realized that Drake was hiding a child with a former sex worker?
--:-- Charles Holmes: That was insane. That is the new beef. That explains Kendrick and Drake now. Lobbing back insults and revelations that are fueling Twitter and Instagram and TikTok and YouTube videos.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is where we are. But even though Pusha T drops this unimaginable bomb on Drake, he seems to recover.
--:-- Charles Holmes: You know, a few months later, he drops this album Scorpion. It's got three huge hits on it. And everyone happy to have their Drake back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this time it feels like Kendrick is once again able to use Drake's best asset against him, the internet.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And this time it seems less certain that Drake will recover.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, Drake will recover because every rapper recovers.
--:-- Charles Holmes: The thing that people don't want to admit is that this beef is good for so many parties. It is good for Universal Music Group that signs both of these artists, the YouTube reaction video ecosystem, podcasting, websites.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Music writing is not in that great of a place. I guarantee you if you go to the remaining music publications that are around, their biggest stories from the week were from this beef.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And the reason I say Drake will be fine is because most rappers after beefs are fine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because what rap is selling and what most major label music is selling is gossip. It's selling attention, the attention economy, the internet.
--:-- Charles Holmes: So it's like Drake will be fine. He'll be back in a couple months with an album. It'll stream out the wazoo. Kendrick will stream out the wazoo. Everybody will be fine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because also what we're forgetting, most of Drake's fans probably don't even know that this happened.
--:-- Charles Holmes: There's a bunch of middle-aged women in the suburbs who are working out, listening to Hotline Bling, and they're like, say what? What do you mean? Kendrick who?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So some people may have missed this beef.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And what they may have missed, though, was significant.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because a lot of things about this particular beef between Kendrick and Drake have been unprecedented.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Drake using AI to bring, you know, fake Tupac and Snoop verses against Kendrick.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The sheer volume of the music has been kind of amazing.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Metro Boomin is crowdsourcing Drake This Is online.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The nature of the allegations, how personal it all is.
--:-- Charles Holmes: You argue that this might be the last great rap beef we ever see in your piece for The Ringer. How come?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's hard to make a superstar in any genre right now.
--:-- Charles Holmes: I think there's a reason why at the end of the year, when you look at the biggest streamers and you see Drake, Kendrick, Taylor Swift, Kanye, all these people, all of those rappers are 10, 15, sometimes 20 years into their career.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even the pop stars.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And that's just because streaming, TikTok, the attention economy, it's just different.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I came of age, I was able to pay attention to Drake and Kendrick and become their fan in a myriad of ways that just a younger audience doesn't anymore.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And I would guarantee you, if you asked a 10, 11, 12-year-old if they were keeping up with this beef, the answer would be no, because all of this starts on songs and subliminals that were released a decade ago.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think that there will always be rap beef. Rappers will be beefing as long as people are rhyming over beats.
--:-- Charles Holmes: But for people to care at this extent, it takes a certain amount of money, prestige.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The reason that this is the last great rap beef is, I'll ask you this, Sean, can you name me a rapper that has come out in the last 10 to 15 years that your mom would even know in the same way as Drake and Kendrick?
--:-- Charles Holmes: Oh, man, no.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And my mom, like, spends a lot of time on Twitter and still, no.
--:-- Charles Holmes: I don't think so. Maybe Cardi B. But once again, Cardi B has dropped one album. And she's just like, that's cool. I'll give you some features.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, it's a different time.
--:-- Charles Holmes: If this is the last great sort of gasp of hip-hop beef, do you think we're going out on a good one?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think that we are going out in the most entertaining way possible. Not like us. That's a bop.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Kendrick is about to have two summer hits.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I don't think, or at least me personally, none of these diss tracks live up to what they gave us before.
--:-- Charles Holmes: But I also think that that makes sense. I think a lot of rappers tend to make their best work when they are young and hungry and celebrity is not the main equation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think for Kendrick and Drake, they've been famous and dominant for so long. It is impossible for celebrity not to infect the more artistic parts of their work.
--:-- Charles Holmes: And let's be clear, Drake and Kendrick are among, if not the most important musicians of just the 21st century in terms of what they've done and how they pushed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In their time on the top, hip-hop became the most consumed genre in the world. A genre that was made in New York by black and brown people with scraps is now something that is a multi-billion dollar industry that is incredible.
--:-- Charles Holmes: But there is a sadness being like, oh this is how it ends every second every well that is that's the American story, I guess.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you a bad chick, put your hands up high, hands up high, hands up high. Tell them the lights down right now. Put me in the mood. I'm talking about dark moon perfume. Go.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Charles Holmes, TheRinger.com. He wrote one titled Drake and Kendrick Lamar is the last great rap beef. Thank God.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank God for Amina El-Sadi who edited the show today and for Matthew Collette who fact-checked.
--:-- Charles Holmes: For David Herman and Patrick Boyd and Rob Byers, who all ganged up for the mix.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And thank God for Zach Mack. He joined us from across the hall at Vox Media to produce today's show.
--:-- Charles Holmes: He's got his own show with Taylor Lorenz called Power User. Their latest episode is about industry plants. Put on your industry pants and give it a listen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Before we go, a reminder that Drake and Kendrick used to be buds. They collaborated and people loved it.
--:-- Charles Holmes: News broke yesterday that a security guard got shot outside of Drake's palace in Toronto. Nobody knows why yet. Could have been this beef. Could have been another one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But let's just please stick to writing poems about each other, boys. Please.
--:-- Charles Holmes: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use. Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs who use Mercury to do more for their business. Mercury. Banking that does more.
