--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- [Support music fades out]
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say. So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. Expose corruption wherever we find it. And give fresh perspective on everything. From wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't think there's anyone on planet Earth who thinks about dating apps more than my friend Andrea Salenzi. For proof, you can check out her Instagram. It's filled with screenshots from all her different apps. If you open up my phone, I have over 10 dating apps on here because I kind of believe the hype sometimes that if I just get on the right app, then everything's going to be OK. So I have The League. I have Hinge. I have Bumble. I have Tinder. I have Raya. I have J-Swipe, Coffee Meets Bagel, Match, Field, Lex, OKCupid, Her, Chorus, Meet Me, Scruff. I'm on everything I can get onto.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrea used to host a great dating podcast called YOY. And I have a dating story for you. So I moved to L.A. a year ago, and in the past year, I've gone on a lot of first dates. One of them was with this guy who I met on the dating app Raya. It's the dating app for quote-unquote celebrities, but also creatives. It's really mostly DJs from Australia and lingerie models. But this guy's profile stood out to me. First of all, he works in television, which I thought was so cool, an industry that I felt like we'd have a lot to talk about. And then also, he just had this great old-fashioned handsomeness. It's kind of hard to describe, but just seemed very put together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I Google stalked him a lot just to make sure he would be a good guy, and everything was pointing to yes. I knew that we had mutual friends that he probably didn't realize we had. I knew about how he takes a boxing class, and I knew all these tiny details from his life down to what his niece looks like, whether or not he likes dogs, that made me feel incredibly safe on this date with this person. So we met at a funky retro 70s bar called Good Times at Davy Wayne's. It's the kind of place where you, there's a secret entrance, you walk in through a refrigerator door, and then when you get in, it's kind of like a 70s rec room basement. It's a bar full of couches. You're next to lamps. There are records on the wall, an old stone fireplace. It feels like you're in the basement at that 70s show. Just like really fun, funky vibe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And are you getting drinks, food, what? You're not supposed to do food on a first date. What is that question? So just drinks? Yeah, just a drink. And our conversation was going great. He had a lot of confidence and energy, but he kept getting up to leave for the bathroom. No shame, right? He probably has Crohn's disease. You don't tell someone about Crohn's disease until the third date, you know? So everything was going great. The date ended. And then he asked if I would walk him to his office. And he said he needed to get something from his office. So I was like, sure, I'll walk you there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we walk over to his office he kind of leans me against the gate by the entrance and gives me this long sexy kiss and I'm excited I can see a future with this person so he he goes inside his office and he comes back with this plastic bag and I'm like what's in the bag and uh he pulls it out it's a bottle of very cheap whiskey and it's half empty and that was the first moment I realized that he might have already been drunk before our date.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, no. And then he says, I just want to be really direct with you, Andrea. I really like you. I think this date's going awesome. You know, I just want to cut to the chase. I'd like to have you come back to my apartment. And, well, he asked to do a really specific sexual act, and I said no. I was scandalized, to be clear. And he proceeded to walk me to my car, and the whole way that was all he would talk about. and couldn't hear me say no to him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That should have been the last time he asked me to do that. You know, clothes are completely on, we're walking down Sunset Boulevard, and I just can't believe I have to keep saying no to this, that he can't register my words. And, you know, you think in this current climate, hashtag me too, that a woman saying, no, I don't want to do that with you, he would be able to hear me knowing that we had mutual friends, that we work in the same industry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there was this feeling on my drive home after I said goodbye to him that I just felt, why am I still dating? It's just such reality distorting that you also could be with someone where you felt safe and then suddenly feel so much pressure and so unsafe and just kind of like rushing to your car. A lot of people who use dating apps have experiences like Andrea's, but it's impossible to know how many people are having these experiences or worse
--:-- Elizabeth Pichani: Elizabeth Pichani recently tried to find out For 16 months she and her colleagues at Columbia Journalism Investigations attempted to gather data about sexual violence on dating apps. As a heads up, what she found was disturbing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We found 157 cases in which sexual assault or rape occurred off of an online dating app. and corroborating them with police reports or lawsuits and court documents. We also did an exploratory survey of about 1,200 women who've used an online dating app in the past 15 years and found that out of these 1,200 women, about a third, so 30%, said they were sexually assaulted off of an online dating app, which is quite a significant number.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We also saw some instances in which there were repeat offenders, So people who were convicted rapists, sometimes multiple time convicted rapists, using the apps again to reoffend. Had anyone ever done an investigation like yours into these apps? No, not to date. There was a lot of individual news reports about specific cases, but there hadn't yet been a overarching look into the industry as a whole.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And from there, we noticed that the most frequent apps were all owned by this one company called Match Group, which is a company based in Dallas with $1.7 billion in revenue. And they own 45 dating platforms, including the most popular dating apps like Tinder, Hinge, OkCupid, and Plenty of Fish. and they were probably the most occurring apps because they're the most popular sites, but it led us to question what is match group safety measures, what are their practices, and what are their promises.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Did you see any effort to protect users? We saw some interesting agreements, including one in 2012 that was signed with then Attorney General of California Kamala Harris. Online dating websites have agreed to screen for sex offenders now. This comes after a Southern California woman was assaulted on a date. Match.com, eHarmony, and Spark Networks will check subscribers against sex offender registries and also provide a way for users to report abuses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it was basically an agreement on best industry practices and Match Group signed as well as eHarmony and Spark's network, which owns like Christian Mingle and JDate. And they agreed that screening against the sex offender registry was a best industry practice for their paid products. Now, as Match.com became the publicly traded Match Group and acquired such apps as Tinder, Hinge, and OkCupid, they didn't extend this practice to their free products or even to users who are paying for premium features within their free products.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you're saying the Match Group, which owns Tinder and Hinge, Match.com, OkCupid, has the ability to screen against sex offenders, but they're only doing it for some of their paid services, not even all of them. Correct. Their promise was originally for paid products, but they didn't extend it to their free ones as they grew larger and larger over time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you contacted them in your investigation. How'd they respond to what you found? Dozens upon dozens of cases of sexual assault or even rape. Basically, in their statement, they said they don't tolerate sex offenders on their sites, but they also said that on their free products like Tinder, Plenty Efficient, OkCupid, they're not able to obtain sufficient and reliable information to make meaningful background checks possible.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that's their words. Another thing we commonly heard from the company is that it gives a false sense of security. So their worry or argument is if we tell users we're background checking other users, then people won't take proactive measures themselves. Isn't it like in Match.com's interest to keep its users safe? I think financially it can cost money to do background checks depending on what type or what level.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think if there's enough user awareness on safety measures, I would think there's an incentive to keep users safe in order to grow their base. I guess gaming this out, what would a system that protected users from, say, convicted rapists or other kinds of sex criminals look like? It depends. I think that companies like this have said that sex offenders and even felons aren't allowed on their apps in their terms of service.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So if they're going to uphold users to that, there could be a screening and check to make sure that that's true. And I think an app that is taking user safety seriously is one in which they are very proactively following up about users' reports of rape and also proactively screening against the sex offender registry or doing background checks if that's what they're going to say users aren't allowed to do or be on in their terms of service.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, I guess the thing is that it's totally working without users having protections like these, right? I mean, how many people are using these apps right now? Do we know? Yeah, exactly. There's millions of people using these apps. So it kind of depends on what category you're going to use to measure. So there's paid subscriptions, monthly users, active users.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I'd say roughly Tinder has reported that they have an audience reach of about 7 million users, which is the most popular online dating app in the U.S. And then Bumble is second ranked at around 5 million users. Okay, so millions and millions of people are using these apps potentially every day without these kinds of protections in place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there any chance anyone's going to do anything about it if that many people don't seem to really care? We'll see. There's a House subcommittee now investigating Match Group, Bumble, Grindr, and Meet Group particularly about underage users and sex offenders So maybe there will be an incentive to change things We not quite sure So it essentially on users to protect themselves
--:-- Elizabeth Pichani: Exactly. I really say that the thesis of what we came to find is the burden and responsibility is really on the user.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Elizabeth Pichani She's with Columbia Journalism Investigations Her study was published in conjunction with ProPublica You can find it over at ProPublica.org It's titled Tinder lets known sex offenders use the app It's not the only one So it's on you to keep yourself safe
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After the break, Andrea Salenzi returns with her online dating safety tips. I'm Sean Rameswaram, and this is Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of my friends have developed a new policy, which is not to give your matches your real phone number until after the date. And this is because if you give someone your real phone number, it means that they can continue to message you after the date ends if it turns out to be a bad date.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So if someone reacts badly to you saying, hey, do you mind if we keep messaging within the app? I like to wait to give out my phone number. If he has a bad reaction to that, that's not someone you want to go on that date with in the first place. Good to know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Another thing I do is I always ask for the last name. I want to Google you and see if you're a real person. I have a friend who recently asked for a last name and he said, oh, hey, if something comes up that makes you think I murdered someone, you know, I'm happy to explain it some more. And he really did possibly murder someone. So I'm just, you know, you got to ask for that last name.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Deeply unsettling, Andrea. More safety tips. Always get to the bar early. Make friends with the bartender. Find a way to make a joke that implies I'm on a first date. Like, oh, I hope he gets here. Tinder, you know. And then I pay for my drink. So my tab is closed out. I can leave at any moment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then my last safety tip is to always listen to your own warning signs. So if something feels off, like he won't stop going to the bathroom throughout the date and just feels like you're thinking to yourself, I wonder if he's using drugs. Like, pay attention to that little voice because it matters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you, Andrea. So then these are the fun tips. Oh, good. I think when you look at people's dating profiles, instead of looking for what you dislike, you know, oh, I don't like that sports team. Oh, there's too many photos of him with his friends. You know, try to stop and really think about something you might like that draws you to that person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it also just keeps your head in a more positive place. So you're not just like filling yourself with dread and hate the whole experience. My other tip is to always show your profile to a friend. Get them to call you out on your bullshit. And then the other thing is to find a way of keeping track of your dates to make sure you're actually going on dates.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because online dating can feel like dating, but it's not. You're just swiping. I think you actually need to log the hours with someone across the table with a drink in your hand to get better at dating. Andrea, to the best of your abilities, when did the online dating revolution start? Was it eHarmony? Was it OKCupid? Match.com? It was before Tinder, right? I mean, online dating for me feels like as old as being online.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So my grandma, when in the early days of AOL, heard about a website called classified2000.com. What? That sounds like real estate. It kind of was. It was like the first classified section online before Craigslist became just the one we used for that. And they had a personal section. She heard about it from her friend Rhoda. And she wrote her own personal ad on it. 65-ish plumpish Jewish was the title of her personal ad.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she heard from younger guys. She heard from gun collectors. She heard from all kinds of people. And then she heard from my grandpa, Saul. And she knew he was the one when they got in the cab after their lunch date. And he said, we're off like a herd of turtles. Slow down, Grandpa Saul. Which was the thing my grandpa used to say. Cute.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So my grandma, obviously a pioneer. But then I really wasn't hearing about online dating until around 2009 when my college exes were telling me that they were doing it And that when I started to hear a lot about a website called okcupid So I signed up for OkCupid in probably 2010. And your OkCupid profile involves filling out a survey, you know, uploading a collection of photos, probably from your digital camera.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was just a totally different moment for online dating. And you would kind of have it open at work as another tab on your browser. But doing it on your phone made so much sense that the moment Tinder launched, there was kind of no going back. Yeah, Tinder the game changer. Shout outs to Grindr.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, Tinder shows up in 2012. There was this internet entrepreneur, Justin Mateen, who hosted a party at his parents' house in California. In order to get in, he asked sorority sisters and fraternity brothers from nearby colleges to be sure that they downloaded this new app he just created called Tinder. So Tinder started at a college party.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is it about this college party dating app that was such a game changer? Was it just that it was on your phone? So Tinder was the first time that we had swiping on our phones, where you sort different profiles with your thumbs going left and right for no and yes. And that app device just totally changed the way we use our phones.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for me as a dater, it was suddenly fun to online date again. Because it kind of gamified the whole thing, huh? Yeah. And it made me feel powerful in a way that I hadn't felt with online dating before. You know, I'm just using my little thumb, but I'm like, I could picture a future with you. Never you. You don't get to talk to me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's actually, Tinder had this built-in safety privacy feature, which is that only the people that you opted to allow to message you got to message you. OKCupid, it felt like standing naked on a subway platform. You know, it would be message after message from guys saying, nice eyes. Oh, I like your bike. You know, whatever nonsense they wanted to tell me about me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, the bike compliment is very nice, but I'm just not interested. I wonder, you know, I mean, with all of the new apps and all of the trend towards going online to find your partner, to go on your date, to meet a romantic interest, whatever it might be. What has it done to like our sense of romance? What has it done to like the numbers on dating and marriage and all that stuff? Has it has it revolutionized love?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have more single people than at any other time in history. Millennials are getting married later than any other generation before. But when it comes to dating apps, I don't think they're helping solve that, you know, single people problem. The research is actually showing that we are not actually dating that much anymore.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What? What? So there's survey data from 2017. This is a study from Stanford that showed that only 18.7% of unpartnered heterosexual men and 11.4% of unpartnered heterosexual women went on any dates at all in the past year. Huh. So over 80% of all single people aren't dating. And I think we all have that friend who says, I don't know. I just can't do it anymore. I'll make time for it next year. oh, I got to lose five pounds or whatever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I just I have these friends who are very comfortable putting off the work of dating because it sucks. It's terrible. I mean, it would have been my preference to meet someone years ago and never have to develop this expertise. But wait a minute, the vast majority of single people in America, more than 80 percent of them are not dating. Aren't millions of people using these apps? Dating apps are now the number one way people meet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, Chad, this is the way people meet now. You could look at the second most popular dating app in the US, which is Bumble, and that's behind Tinder. They say they have 81 million users in 150 countries. Although, caveat to those 81 million, only 11 million of them actually use the app once a month. So you could have a lot of people on your app, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're logging in and going on dates.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so this is how people meet, but people are also dating less. We have more single people than ever before. What does that tell us? People are using the apps but not finding what they're looking for? You know, I think if you're looking for a lasting relationship, you just are going to be creating a really different profile than someone who isn't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there actually are a lot of people who really do want to find long-term partners. So this year, Tinder released the information that the number one word that appears most frequently on all of their dating profiles across all of Tinder is the word real. Real. Real. As in like, I'm looking for a real relationship or I'm looking for someone who's like a real person who really wants to meet me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Andrea, have you met a real person yet? You know, over the years, I got really good at online dating. So using my, you know, 10,000 hours of online dating, I think is how I met my boyfriend. Oh, there's a boyfriend? Mm-hmm. Congratulations, mazel. Thanks. We just celebrated four months, so it's early, but I think his cats are about to meet my dog.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. Wow. Does this mean that after his cats meet your dog, maybe you'll delete the league, Hinge, Bumble, Tinder, Riot, J-Swipe, Coffee Meets Bagel, Chorus, Lex, Lo-Fi, OkCupid, and Scruff from your phone? I don't think I can. He really likes using my dating apps. He likes using them? Yeah, so Dan will grab my phone sometimes when he's bored and he'll open up Hinge and just, you know, kind of marvel at all of his competition and feel relieved that we've met each other.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he'll say, you know, like, look at this guy. Aw. Happy Valentine's Day, Andrea Salenzi. Happy Valentine's Day to you, Sean. Do you have a Valentine this year? Everyone wants to know. Gotta go, Andrea. Bye.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: you
