How to Create a New Version of Yourself: Let Go of Past Mistakes & Overcome Regret

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. There are going to be times in your life when you wake up and wonder, have I messed it all up? Periods in your life that just suck, where you've made a major mistake, you feel a lot of regret. Maybe you're still there mentally right now. Or maybe someone that you love is going through a really low period in their life.

Mel Robbins: When you're struggling, it begs the question, can you really overcome any failure or any pain or regret or mistake that you've made in your life? And if I were to tell you that there's absolutely no mistake that will keep you from becoming who you're truly meant to be, would you actually believe me? Well, after today, you will.

Mel Robbins: Because you're about to meet a remarkably inspiring person who has been knocked down over and over and over again. And she knows the secret to getting back up, to finding your power, even when you feel powerless. When you were little, you once thought anything was possible. This episode today will remind you it still is, because there is nothing that you've done that will stand in the way of who you want to become.

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I am so excited for our conversation today, and I'm so grateful that I get to spend some time together with you. It's always an honor to be here with you, and I also want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that is going to help you see a bigger potential for your life. And if you're a new listener, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I am so glad that you're here.

Mel Robbins: I'm so glad that you're here in particular right now today to listen to this, because there is a person in our Boston studios right now who I have been wanting to meet for years. She has carved out time in her extraordinarily busy schedule to hop on a plane, to fly to Boston, and to be here. You want to know why? Because she has a word or two she'd like to say to you. She says it's time to get rid of the poison that's between your ears that you listen to every day. And she's going to teach you how to make a meal out of the leftovers that life has given you.

Mel Robbins: So if you're tired of regrets holding you back, and if you're sick of beating yourself up over the mistakes that you've made, today you're going to learn how to pick yourself back up and take that big old pile of leftovers from life and turn it into a five-star meal. You know, I always say no one's coming, but today someone special is here. The one and only Sarah Jakes Roberts.

Mel Robbins: And Sarah is a force to be reckoned with. She's on a mission to empower you, and millions of people follow her online. They tune into her weekly sermons, which are a mix of wisdom, storytelling, inspiration, and truth bombs. She is a philanthropist, a pastor, and an international bestselling author. Her latest book, *Power Moves*, was an instant *New York Times* bestseller, and she is going to be an instant favorite human being of yours.

Mel Robbins: Because what I love the most about Sarah is that she may be on the stage and preaching from the pulpit, but she's not there above you. Just like me, she is right there beside you. And you're going to hear how life has very publicly knocked her down. She's here today to remind you of who you are and how to pick yourself back up and make something amazing with the life that you have.

Mel Robbins: Sarah Jakes Roberts, I'm so excited to get to spend some time with you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Thank you. I'm looking forward to it.

Mel Robbins: So I would love to have you start by talking directly to the person who's listening and share with them what they can expect to experience and learn from you today. Like, how might their life change if they take everything that you're about to share to heart?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I would say today you are going to learn to rest in the truth of who you are. Not just your hopes and dreams, the achievements and shiny things, but the things that have been hard and challenging. Today, you're going to find a way to rest in that, embrace it, accept it, and then allow it to propel you into a big, beautiful future.

Mel Robbins: Oh yeah, I'm ready.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, I would like that. Let's go. Let's go. And in order to go forward, I think oftentimes in life you got to look back. And one of the things that I love the most about you—there's so many things that I love about you—but I love that whenever I watch you online or I tune into a sermon or I read something that you've written, I feel as though I have somebody walking by my side, not somebody speaking down from above.

Mel Robbins: And you have a story in terms of your past that I think a lot of people don't realize. And I would love for us to go back in time before we start talking about the wisdom that you have to share, because there is so much that you learned from those periods in your life. So can you take us back to this moment in time? You are the daughter of a well-known mega church pastor and something happens in your personal life.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yes, I got pregnant at 13 years old. I had my son at 14 years old, which I think is a staggering sentence no matter whose child you are. But the added complexity of my father being a prominent leader in faith, I think, further intensified the sense of shame, the sense of guilt that I had to wade through for about 10 years.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I think also that was heightened by this fact that though I have this family that is huge in the faith world, I never really felt like one of the good girls, one of the God girls, one of the church girls. And so in many ways, it felt like this pregnancy just confirmed a pre-existing insecurity that for some reason I didn't fit. And so my pregnancy is when I accepted, okay, this is not for me. I'm going to figure life out on my own, and I'm going to let all the good church people do what good church people do, and I'm just going to figure everything else out.

Mel Robbins: Well, God had different plans, I think.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: He did.

Mel Robbins: You know, when I think about the age 13 and 14, how did you even process something like that as such a young girl?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I didn't. I thought the worst thing that was going to happen was I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to be grounded. And we didn't even have cell phones at the time. I thought, oh my gosh, you're going to take the antenna out of the TV and take the phone cord out of the wall. This is going to be punishment. It wasn't until I saw their reaction that I began to realize that this is bigger than just "you're in trouble." This is a life-altering experience that has created grief in our family.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I think that seeing their grief, seeing them struggle with what it means to have a child that's having a child, made me realize that whatever just took place here has changed my life forever.

Mel Robbins: And it's interesting that you, in reflecting back, say my immediate reaction was one of going, "Oh, well, there are those kind of people over there that are the godly church people. I'm always going to be over here." What was that journey like over those 10 years where you were wrestling with that natural instinct that we all have that we separate? We don't see ourselves as connected to other people. We push back against the love that's coming at us or the support that's coming at us. How did you even move through that?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So I started off with comparison. "I'm not like them, so let me figure out who I am like." And so I would say, "You know what? I kind of feel like I'm close to this kind of girl, so I'll be that kind of girl." And then I got with those kinds of girls and I'm like, "I don't exactly fit here, so let me go here." And I thought maybe achievement, maybe success, maybe relationships. I can be like whoever this other girl is supposed to be, and then I will try and find myself.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I think as long as I was trying to be like some other version of someone, I never had an opportunity to figure out who I was. And so for 10 years, I was trying on, like Cinderella trying on different shoes. I was just trying on shoe after shoe after shoe until I said, "You know what? I'm going to be barefoot. Who needs shoes? I'm a country girl from West Virginia. I'm going to be barefoot. I'm going to stand flat-footed in the truth of who I am. I'm going to stand flat-footed in this."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Maybe it is isolation. Maybe it is loneliness. Maybe I don't fit anywhere. Maybe I just fit within myself. And from that space, I said, "You know what? I've tried literally everything. I have waitressed at a strip club. I've tried these toxic relationships. I've gone to school. I worked for the government. I tried everything. I'm going to try faith. I'm going to try and figure out if this God who they talk about, who loves you no matter what, if maybe possibly it works for someone like me."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I think from there, this really intimate relationship with God allowed me to encounter healing and love and restoration. And I thought that it would just be between me and God, that it would make no sense to anyone else. But it finally made sense to me.

Mel Robbins: You said something that struck me: "Maybe I could just fit within myself."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: What does that mean?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Maybe I can just embrace myself. Instead of seeking a sense of belonging, a sense of okayness from other people, if I could find a way to be okay with myself, then I can wrap my arms around who I am. And for me, I had to sit with myself until I no longer cringed. I had to sit with myself until I no longer felt shame. I had to sit with myself until I could experience compassion where I once felt guilt. And from that place of compassion, I learned to love who I am. And yes, this is my story. And no, it may not be perfect, but I'm going to stick beside me.

Mel Robbins: Every single one of us has stuff that we've done in the past, things that we have done to ourselves or other people, mistakes that we think that we've made. How do you begin the process of sitting with yourself? How do you learn how to forgive yourself?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: It starts with intention. I will say those 10 years I was sitting with myself, but I was sitting with myself punishing myself. "How could you be so stupid? You made the biggest mistake. No one's ever going to want you." Sometimes we are sitting with ourselves, but *how* we are sitting with ourselves is why we can't heal. You can't want to heal and punish yourself at the same time.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: To repeat the words that other people have spoken over you that were negative, having it replay in your mind over and over again while you sit with yourself, will never bring you to a place of healing. Sitting with yourself with the pursuit of compassion, with the pursuit of love and acceptance—that is when we start sitting with ourself and experience some discomfort and some dysregulation. Because sitting with myself and trying to be compassionate requires me to stretch to love myself in a way that I don't think it's possible.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And as long as you don't think it's possible to sit with yourself and love yourself, every facet of who you are, it doesn't matter who you love. It doesn't matter what you achieve. Until you can really sit with yourself, none of those things are going to make you feel better either. But it is the greatest, absolute greatest gift that you can give yourself, to allow love to flood the place where you once felt emptiness.

Mel Robbins: I just want to make sure that as you're taking your walk or you're washing your dishes or you're driving in your car, that you caught the actual magic that just came through the speakers or the headphones. I have never heard anybody say something as profound as you just said. You cannot heal while you are still punishing yourself.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins: And we don't do ourselves any favors by committing to punishing ourselves over and over again for what we did, for what we allowed to happen. This is what we say, though. We say to ourselves, "I'm going to keep this from happening again by constantly living with it right in front of me. And if I can live with it right in front of me, if I can beat myself up, if I can punish myself, then I will keep this from happening again. I will prepare myself for further rejection from other people if I constantly remember how unworthy I am, how little value I possess."

Mel Robbins: And so in many ways, we think this is me protecting myself by constantly keeping it in front of my face. But if we're honest, we do long for an existence where we want to believe that I am not just this one moment. But we will never be more than that one moment if we constantly replay that moment in our head. And so to invite into our atmosphere, "What other moments do I want to have? What other things do I want to define me?"

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I spent so long not wanting to be defined as a teen mom, instead of saying, "I will be defined as being a teen mom. But also, I'm going to be an incredible person. But also, I'm going to love myself. But also, I'm going to dream and I'm going to be an author and a teen mom." I'm not trying to disconnect from who I was. I'm trying to bring all of who I am into the fullness of where I am.

Mel Robbins: Sarah Jakes Roberts just gave you a gift. But also. Yeah. But also. But also. I'm this and that. I am all of these things. And I thought that because I was this one thing, I had no permission to be anything else.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So, yeah, the truth is, yeah, I'm a teen mom. Yes, I've gone through divorce. I've got a laundry list of things that I never wanted to be that I've had to step boldly in. And in addition to that, I'm on the Mel Robbins podcast. And in addition to that, millions of people tune into you every single week. All of those things are true. All of these things are true. And I don't want to be all of my achievements. Gosh, can you imagine what that would be? The pressure and arrogance connected to that.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I want to be this beautiful mixture, this beautiful tapestry of a girl on a journey and a woman owning her power. And I can live in all of that. I can do all of that. A girl on her journey and a woman owning her power.

Mel Robbins: Somebody needs to write a song. Holy cow. Do you, when you're speaking, have this experience of just things flowing through you? I don't even feel like it's a conversation. I feel this energy and this truth that comes through you. It just gets me so choked up to be in the presence of somebody that has such a gift.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I believe that I'm anointed for this. I believe that anything that I've done in the earth is not a reflection of my skills or my talents or something you pick up in a book, and that I have this incredible opportunity to reflect God's glory everywhere I go. And if I can get past my nerves, if I can get past my insecurity, if I can get past my second-guessing and rest in that truth, there is a flow that just happens.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And it doesn't just happen like in this. I'm in this flow when I'm raising my children and they're opening up to me and I'm like, "God, don't let me be worried. Don't let me overreact. Let me reflect your glory in their vulnerability. Let me reflect your glory when I go into this meeting." I really do want to be a light in this world.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And after experiencing as much darkness as I have gone through, to offer just a flicker to another person—maybe I can't be this big, brilliant light for everyone. But if today, in this moment, you're listening and I get to be a flicker on your journey, just know that there are other flames connected that are going to build this inferno of who you're going to be. But we got to gather every flicker.

Mel Robbins: Right. Yeah. And I think that's the part of life that many of us miss. We're waiting for these big moments that are going to shine a huge light on us. "When I have that huge light, then I'm going to feel better. I'm going to be confident. I'm going to be powerful." But I am beginning to believe that it's all about us gathering those little moments, those little Christmas-light-size moments where things are just a little bit better. And then we look up and things have become brilliant.

Mel Robbins: You know, millions of people do tune in to your every word. And having watched and listened to your sermons and experienced what a force you are, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what you believe most of us need to hear and be reminded of.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Most people underestimate how necessary their existence is in the world. And as a result, assume a posture of resignation that leaves the world less than what it could be. Our lives are not random. They are not coincidences. There is nothing more special about me than there is about you. We were all given these lives to make the world better.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I feel like most people underestimate how necessary they are. And as a result, they don't take their healing seriously. They don't take their thoughts seriously. We put ourselves on discount and give ourselves away to the lowest bidder because we have these achings inside of us. But if we truly ever tapped into the high value of our breath, it would change what we speak. It would change what we think. It would change how we show up in the world. And it would quite literally make the world a better place.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: If you can just make your world—your friends, your family, your sisters, your coworkers—if you can take seriously the impact you have in your corner of the world, and then I take seriously the impact that I have with my influence in my corner of the world, those incremental commitments are how we begin to change the narrative of what it means to be humans surviving together.

Mel Robbins: That's beautiful. And I think you're right. I do too. I get struck by the number of people that write in every single day that are seeking purpose. And I think to myself, well, your purpose is to heal and to share yourself and to make yourself better and then make everybody that comes in contact with you feel a little better, to spread the light that you're talking about. But it starts with you.

Mel Robbins: You said something that just, holy cow, I'd never heard this. It's this concept of discounting yourself to the lowest bidder.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Can you explain that?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah. So when I look at the 10 years of my life where I struggled, first of all, I grew up in church during the height of purity culture. The highest prize was to be this untouched virgin when you get married. They didn't care if you went to school. They just said, "Girl, just don't give it up." Okay. Well, I did it. I was like, "Okay, I did it." And so I'm like, "All right, we're going to knock that price down a little bit, put a little sticker over my worth and my value." And then I'm like, "Well, hey, the price is already low. You might as well try some other things."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And so I think little by little, I fell for this idea that if I cannot live up to someone else's definition of a woman, someone else's definition of a believer, someone else's definition, then I have to discredit, I have to discount who I am. And the only problem with that is when you begin to see yourself as less valuable, you also accept things that you would not otherwise accept if you felt like you had value.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: "If I were smart enough, if I were thin enough, if I were beautiful enough, then maybe I wouldn't have to do this. But since I don't have these things, I have to accept that." And that is a lie. Your value is not set by these experiences you have gone through. They are not set by society's standard. I don't care what they call beautiful. I don't care what they call powerful. Your value is an inside job. It is a commitment that says, "You know what? The truth of who I am, my ability to survive all that I've gone through, the way that I have seen the world has added to my value, not decreased it."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And that is some big, bad, bold belief that not many of us are able to tap into. But if we can just try by faith to say, "You know what? What if that didn't change anything?"

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I work with women quite a bit. And while my issue was teen pregnancy and having to recover from that, I know enough about what women have gone through to know that whether their parents got divorced, they got divorced, molestation—they have all of these experiences that they think in some way has made them different than the person they're sitting next to. And because I am not as valuable, then I have to do things that they don't have to do.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: What I have learned is that everyone has had some type of experience that has challenged them in their belief of their value. And because we've all had these types of experiences, maybe we aren't any less valuable as a result of the experiences. Maybe instead we're more valuable because the wisdom and resiliency connected with having to face these things have made us more confident, more courageous in how we can show up in the world. There's a conversion that has to take place. But once that conversion happens, there's a relentlessness that is attached to it as well.

Mel Robbins: For the person listening who is nodding along, the way you just framed this idea—that if you take any mistake that you make and then you discount yourself and you start to tell yourself the story over and over again that you're not valuable, which then makes you accept behaviors in your life or makes you discount your own value—and you said, actually, no, there's a flip here. All those experiences actually create wisdom. They make you human. And it's what you do with those things that matters, and you have control over that. And most people are sitting there talking about what happened.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Instead of flipping it into something that they can use to make something extraordinary happen. You have this concept about life giving you leftovers.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: And how you make a meal out of it. Can you share that with us? Because I have a feeling that that's sort of a tool we can use to help us look at the things that we keep beating ourselves up over.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Okay, so if I go back to when I was pregnant, and mind you, I was 14 years old. So I thought that the only way I could recover from my pregnancy was to create a new life, a new existence. And so my goal was to do something completely new. "I'm going to be an accountant. I'm going to be a CFO. I am going to put something on top of this teen pregnancy that's going to make things better."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And I think the reason why I failed over and over again in trying to create something new is that I wasn't using what I had left over. Instead of saying, "Okay, this is what's in my cabinet. I'm a teen mom. I'm a smart girl. I have a writing gift." I kept trying to reinvent who I was. And you can't reinvent who you are using ingredients that don't exist. You got to use all of the ingredients.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So yes, I have all of these gifts and talents, but I also have a child. I'm still struggling with my insecurities. I've gone through this divorce. I have to take all of this in order to create something that is really going to be authentic to who I am. Because what I don't want to do is reinvent a version of myself that requires me to pretend that I'm not who I was. This is who I am. This is my truth.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And when you fight to really accept the truth of who you are, you don't allow it to be snatched easily out of your hands. And because it's not snatched easily out of your hands, whatever you build with those things aren't snatched either.

Mel Robbins: When I started blogging—because this is how all of this became a thing where I had a following—so just to put it in a timeline, are you like in your early 20s?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I'm in my early 20s.

Mel Robbins: Okay. So you open up the cupboard. And I love that visual because I think most of us, when we say, "Let's just look at what you got. Let's just take the raw ingredients." For me, it's like being molested. It's all the cheating that I did. It's the anxiety that I struggled with. It's what a bitch I used to be. It is all of it. It's all you.

Mel Robbins: You know, Sarah, when I open up that cupboard, I'm like, "Whoa. You know what? I'll just go grocery shopping. I'm going grocery shopping. I'm not cooking with that. I'll order in. I'll go to our dad."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah, exactly.

Mel Robbins: No, no, no, no. I'm not opening the cupboard. Let's do something with it. Let's paint the cupboard.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins: Let's nail it shut.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure.

Mel Robbins: Let's do something. Let's distract everybody over here. But it makes so much sense.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Because until you get comfortable with the ingredients that you have and you see it as something to use—

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: —not to be ashamed of—

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: —not to hide, because the stuff that you hide, people and the world then have power over.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure. For sure. But the second that you open up the cupboard and you are willing to look at what you're working with—

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: —now you have power.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. I love it.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: That to me is like the greatest message that any of us need to understand. Closing the cabinet means that I have to live in an existence that pretends that I don't have what I have. And that is stressful and that is inauthentic. And then we start people pleasing because if I'm not going to embrace who I am, then I'll just be whoever you need me to be.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: But when you say, "You know what? This is who I am and you're going to have to meet me here. I'm still growing. I'm still talented. But this is what I have to offer. This is what I bring to the table. And I have found value in it. I can show you the value that I have found in it." But until I see it as valuable, I can't expect anyone else to see it.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So yeah, in my early twenties, I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to start blogging." I was in a toxic relationship and I'm just like, "I don't know how I got here." So writing for me is how I process my thoughts, and I'm dumping it onto the internet, not thinking it's going to mean anything. Then people start connecting to this blog and now they're being inspired, and I'm like, "Oh Lord, I didn't mean to open the cupboard." Not inspired by me.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And so I was like, "You know what? I'm going to slow this train down by telling them, 'I got pregnant at 13 years old. I'm going through a divorce. I dropped out of college. I am not your inspiration.'" And then I still was. They were like, "Oh my gosh, me too. Oh my gosh, I'm no longer alone in this. I didn't know that someone else felt this way."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And now all of a sudden, those things that I thought disqualified me, those things that I thought I could never use, are the things that people actually had a taste for. This authenticity, this truth, this uncertainty, and this willingness to own it. There was an appetite for that that at the time it felt like very few people were willing to say, "This is who I am. This is what I've gone through."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And that appetite wasn't just for you to say, "This is who I am." But also, "I really wish that I could also be this." And so in my early 20s, I started this journey of like, "This is where I am. This is what I hope to be true. I'm going to live like it's true." And these women who have been on this journey with me have seen my life evolve literally as a result of us saying, "Hey, maybe we are the misfits. Maybe we aren't the ones that anyone wanted. But girl, I'll claim you. But first you got to claim your cupboard."

Mel Robbins: For sure. Got to claim your cupboard. That is such a phenomenal metaphor.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Because all the people pleasing results in you not wanting people to see what's in there.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure.

Mel Robbins: And until you learn how to go into those places where you're punishing yourself—and you said, when we first started talking, allowing the love and compassion and acceptance to flow into those places that have been really dark. Well, they've been dark because the cabinet doors are closed.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah, for sure.

Mel Robbins: And I mean, it's really liberating. It sounds scary. I can feel the fear that you're probably experiencing right now at the very idea of going into that space that maybe your mom didn't have the courage to go in. Your father never talked about, because a lot of this is generational.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Right.

Mel Robbins: It's how our family's paradigms have shaped the way we see ourselves and the way we see what we're working with. And I am just here to let you know—this is what I love about the book that I wrote—is that I am not going to make you drastically change your life overnight. Just between you and you, can you open that cupboard? Just between you and you, can you say, "This is all that I'm working with"?

Mel Robbins: And some of it's real spicy and some of it's bland and some of it's bitter and some of it's very, very sweet. Just if you could create intimacy within yourself where you say this is all of who I am, if you can hear your own story, that's the beginning. If you can hear it and not cringe, if you can hear it and accept it, that's the beginning. And from that space, you whisper it to another person. There's a friend who's going through something. And because you've gone through your cupboard, you say, hey, I got some of that, too. I just want you to know that that doesn't have to be the end. And from community and connection, we begin to spread our story. And that spreading is why I'm here. And that spreading is the light that we get to offer to the world. It's our testimony. Which again, going back to the cupboard, it's dark when it's closed.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: So opening it up is the beginning of that little Christmas light that you're talking about that starts to sparkle and that we spread. And every time you open your mouth and you tell your story, that makes the light a little bit bigger.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: And you were saying that we make a mistake in waiting for these big bonfires in life.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins: When every single day there's the opportunity to open the cupboard door and open your mouth and tell your story. And that's where the light and the magic is.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure. For somebody who's in the place where, because for a long time when I started looking, I guess I used to say back... but since until you actually sit with what's in your cupboard... yeah, it's in the present. It's right here. It's right here. You have to live very far... well, that's the other thing is that we talk a lot about regret, yeah, but because you won't sit with it, yeah, it's actually not in the past, no. And so for someone who is entertaining that liberating and courageous moment of even faith in yourself to face it, right? And you do cringe. There are some things that the Mel Robbins, when I was Mel Schneeberger, there's stuff that I don't know that I still cringe, but I'm like, "Oh God, woman." And I have compassion. But for somebody that hasn't ever sat with it and the cringe is there and you want to turn from it, do you have any tools or advice for how to sit through the cringe and what is actually coming when you allow all of that grief and that judgment to rise up inside you?

Mel Robbins: I love that you use the word grief. I'm an analogy girl, if you haven't...

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh God, I love that.

Mel Robbins: Okay, so here we go. So I think that part of the reason why we feel regret when we look at those moments in our lives that make us cringe is because we are constantly turning on a movie right in the middle and looking at one particular scene of our life over and over again and judging our life based on that scene. If you are in a moment right now where you're flirting with the idea of learning to sit with yourself and experience compassion for what you've gone through, I would dare you to look at your whole movie in totality. When I thought about the idea of me getting pregnant at 13, I would cringe like, "Girl, how could you?" over and over again. Now, when I think about it, I feel sorry for who I was at 13. Not sorry because of who I am, but I feel compassion. I feel her lostness. I feel her isolation. I feel her loneliness. I feel her anger. I understand why I made that choice. I know what I was looking for. I know what I didn't have because I sat with myself. And when you're in a family, like my parents have, their lives exploded overnight. People talk about like mega churches, mega pastors, like no one sets out for it to be mega. People keep coming and it's like, "I guess we need a bigger building." You know what I mean? And so you make these big buildings and I guess we're supposed to do stuff in the communities that like you respond to the need. And while they were so busy dealing with whatever it meant to be thrust into the spotlight, they thought we were okay. They really did. They thought we were okay, but we were lost in a sea of people. And overnight, our lives went from having this family church where we knew everyone to all of a sudden people sending death threats and we need security. And we weren't okay. No one was helping us process what was happening. They couldn't process it. And so I was lonely. I was angry. I didn't fit. So when I think about who I was when I got pregnant, if I just look at me rubbing my belly at 13, I could say, "Oh, so cringy." I could say, "Man, that girl was really heartbroken. That girl really needed someone who could see her. That girl really needed someone who would tell her where she fit in this world or to take her out of that world and to help dive into her own world." I didn't have those things. And as a result of that, I tried to self-soothe and I made some choices that I wish I could have done differently, mainly for the sake of my son not having to grow up with me at the same time I was growing up.

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: But I don't feel bad about that anymore because I see the whole movie. And so if you're watching this or listening to it, I want you to know that you do not have to look at your life one scene at a time. The greatest gift you can give yourself is to look at it from the opening credits to where you are now and understand that anyone who had what you had in the cabinet would have probably made the same choice. They would have likely ended up addicted too. Maybe they would have been heartbroken as well. Maybe they would have been permitted. Whatever your thing is that makes you cringe. If you look at the whole movie, given what you had to work with, I want you to know that you did the best that you could.

Mel Robbins: It is so true. And there is so much more that I want to dig into with you, but I think this is a really good time to take a quick pause and just allow all of this profound wisdom to seep into you. And while you're listening to our sponsors, I want you to take a minute and please share this with somebody that you love. This conversation is a gift. And Sarah and I are going to be waiting for you. After this short break, stay with us.

[Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins. I am absolutely thrilled that you and I are together today and that we get to spend time with the extraordinary Sarah Jakes Roberts. And now Sarah, you know where I want to go next? It's this. As I listen to you over and over and over again, and just really to each word, the thing that keeps coming up for me is this ability to look at the whole movie of your life. The fact that it's so easy to forget, isn't it, that this is also your parents' first time being human beings?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: That they're doing the best that they can with what they had in the cupboard.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Based on what your grandparents had in their cupboard.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Hello.

Mel Robbins: That doesn't mean that any of it is justified.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: No.

Mel Robbins: It just means like... this is what they had.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: This is what they had. There is this level of kind of, my daughter has this term "open arms." There's kind of open arms kind of people, which is the physical version of an open heart. And you have this ability to make us want to look at our own movie and story with an open heart and compassion for self. How important is that loving understanding, I guess is how I would describe what compassion is?

Mel Robbins: Yeah, for sure. I would... yeah. Looking at your life through a lens of love, not judgment, is an incredible definition of what it means to have compassion. And I think it's responsible to do that when you're going to engage in relationship with other people. Because if you can't look at your life through the lens of love, but you can look at other people's life through the lens of love and feel compassion for them, then you cannot even receive the love that you're pouring God into the world. Or worse, we are harsh with other people because we're harsh with ourselves. Because I can't see my life through a lens of love. I'm definitely not going to see yours. And if I went through this and you went through that, baby girl, grab them bootstraps and that ain't nothing. Like now we're in the struggle Olympics. Like who's got it worse? You know what I mean? Or we're jealous or we're envious. And like, we just are not best people to be in relationship with when we haven't figured out what compassion looks like for our own journey. And especially for doing the work of raising children, loving partners. There is an obligation, I feel, that we have to bring more love into the world. And love isn't going to come from pursuit. It's going to come from us digging a well within ourselves. And when we dig that well and we hit that spring of love, not just for ourselves, it overflows into how we care for other people. We were at Starbucks the other day and my daughter, she's 14. She's not aware of anything except for herself. And she slings the door open and she hits the car of the person beside us.

Mel Robbins: Oh, gosh.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And he's coming out of Starbucks at the same time. And he doesn't... he calls her like a dumb... he's called her something ignorant, crazy. And so I heard him say it and I go, "Now that wasn't kind." And that response, instead of like matching his anger, like because I've been frustrated before someone's hit my door, they weren't paying attention. So like, I'm not going to act like, "Oh my gosh, how could you be frustrated that someone hit your car and probably dinged your door."

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: But I think I caught him so off guard by not responding with fire. I was just like, "No, that wasn't kind." He felt conviction about how he was showing up in the world. But I think that when we are able to really master that, it literally changes all the ways that we interact with people. Now, that doesn't mean I won't cut somebody out, though. So, like, don't catch it. That was a good moment. I was full of love. I must have just been worshiping. But, like, if you catch me on a low moment, you know, I'm going to try. I'm going to do all the things.

Mel Robbins: What are all the things that you do in order to stay in a grounded place where you are present to that power and light inside you?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I have to rest. When I am not resting, I am running on fumes. And when I'm running on fumes, I don't always make the best choices. I'm tired. I'm weary. I'm irritated. From the place of rest, even if for me it just like spiritual rest, right? Letting my brain rest. Gratitude, appreciation, prayer, meditation, really reflecting on my life. And I let the 13-year-old girl who experienced shame, rejection, and loneliness take in where life is now.

Mel Robbins: Oh.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah. The grown woman version of me grabbing this little girl's hand and saying, "Look, girl, like, look, you made it. Your son's 21 now and he loves you and he's an incredible human. And oh my gosh, this man that you married, like, look at how he talks about you and, you know, and my children and my life. And like, look what they're saying about you." Because she heard... she heard you're nasty. She heard you're a slut. She heard you're like... she heard all of those things. And if I'm not careful, I won't allow her to hear what people are saying now. I won't allow her to experience the affirmation of God that exists in her life now. And sometimes I'm so busy doing and checking the boxes and going through the calendar that I don't let her in for like this listening session where like, "Look at this world." I think no matter where you are in your movie, the scene that you're in is still worthy of reaching backward and taking a younger version of yourself and just taking a moment and going, "We made it this far."

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Like, look at all this.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because this thing, this adulting thing, they keep moving the marker. They just keep moving it. It's like, child, I just got here. And now you're telling me that here doesn't exist. It's actually there. And then I get there and that's not here either, you know, but where I am now was a place that I once wanted to be. And I think reconciliation is being able to say, look at where we are now. Like, okay, you have all these things you want to do and all these plans, all that stuff. Like, okay, maybe we get there, maybe we don't. But right now, if we didn't get any further than this, man, if I did not get any further than this, it feels greedy for me when people are like, "What are you going to do next? What's next? What's next?" That feels like greed because I am in the overflow right now. If I never write another book, this is the last podcast I record and I disappear from people's brains and minds. What God has done in my life up until this point was not something I could have ever asked for. I didn't even know this was possible. I did not know that God saw this for me.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh, can I tell you a story?

Mel Robbins: You can, you can, I am in a trance. You can tell me whatever the heck you want to tell me.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: It just gives me chills. I love it. But when I first got pregnant, and someone very close to me looked at me and said, "I always knew to expect something like this from you." And that made me question so much. Now I'm 13 with a 13-year-old mind. And it just made me feel like there's really something wrong with you. The church stuff didn't make sense. And now someone's saying they knew to expect this from you. And I ate that for breakfast, like for 10 years. Like there's something wrong with you, the dirty, the nasty, the all of that. Like I just ate that. I believed it. And when my life started changing, I think I probably did experience imposter syndrome, which it was weird because I told people who I was, but they were still there. And so now I'm just questioning myself. And I was at church and I was just kind of like praying and worshiping. And I was about to go on tour. And, you know, now I just be doing stuff. I'm just like, "Let's see what'll happen if we do a tour." And then the tour sells out. I'm like, "Oh, Lord." I'm usually prepared for things to fail, not for things to succeed. I'm like, "Oh, they come in the tour." And I'm praying. And I really just felt like the presence of God saying, "I always knew to expect something like this from you." And sometimes I'm standing in moments and I start to feel doubt and I start to feel worried and I start to wonder if I have what it takes to stand up in the moment. And I feel God say, "I always knew to expect something like this from you." And trusting what God knows, what God knew, what God saw, even when I didn't see it myself, there's nothing else could be added to this. And I will not allow other people's idea of who I could be to rob me of the assurance I have received from what God's always known about me. Like, I can't let you keep moving the marker because I already know, like, I won already. I won.

Mel Robbins: Well, I think you win the moment you open the cabinet doors.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: How would you frame the way that you're talking about your relationship with God to a person that's listening that either has lost their faith or doesn't believe in God? How do they kind of tap into what you're saying if they're not in a place where they have the same level of faith that you do?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For me, I will say that I believe in the intentionality of our existence. The whole world has been created with this intention, the way that everything is working together, the solar system, the mosquitoes, like everything is playing a part. Like, I hate mosquitoes, but for some reason, they do serve this atmosphere. I just don't believe that it got to humanity and there was no intention for humanity. And so that belief undergirds the way that I show up in the world, that I am just as essential as the sun for my time here. I am just as essential as the ocean for my time here. I believe that. And so from that space of intentionality, I am always seeking out, how do I make sure that I am in an optimal state to be sensitive to the role that I can play in this moment?

Mel Robbins: What I love about what you just said is that you are raising the stakes on yourself for why you are here. And so many of us are looking around for somebody else to go, "Okay, I pick you. Okay, you're now the one. Okay, I'm going to give you permission." And when you look at yourself as being here for a reason, and the reason is simply to spread light, simply to make the people around you, your community, your family, yourself, feel better, to do good, like that in and of itself gives your life meaning. And then when you add into it, "Okay, so let me work with the ingredients that I got. Let me do something with this."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: That's why I said to make sure I'm in my optimal state, which means I've got to make sure that I am as well, as aware, as whole, as reconciled as possible in order for me to be most effective. And that's a constant reconciliation, like in accounting. Like I got to go back to the books. Hold on. You didn't get on my nerves today. I must need a nap. I need to go reconcile. I think rest is something I need. Like I become so... I hate myself when I'm tired. She's not a good girl. She's not. I want to throw her in the cabinet. She needs a nap. She needs like, and not just like, I need to go to sleep. Like I need you all to stop asking me for stuff. Like I can always tell when I'm overexerted when like my family, my community, my team are asking me for things that I set a precedent for and I am annoyed. Why would an eight... Did they call you and tell you to come today to give me this talk? No. Let me tell you, when my eight-year-old asked me what for dinner, I'm like, "Feed your set." Like, when are you going to grow up? When are you going to... why are you asking me for dinner? What do I look like? The chef? I'm like, you need a nap. Because now you set this precedent and you don't want to live up to it anymore. And so maybe you do need to change the precedent, but you probably don't want to communicate it that way. So you need to take a minute, recollect, regroup, figure out what do you need? What is still true for you right now? What is no longer true? And who needs to be aware of this so that they can make space for who you are now?

Mel Robbins: You know what I'm going to do when we're done talking?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: What?

Mel Robbins: I am going to ask the team to take that particular segment. Okay. And text it to me so that I can listen to it on repeat until I have taken my nap and I can just change the precedent and stop being like angry for sure and overworked because you're right it is everyone I think what you just said is genius because especially as women yeah sign me up sign me up okay I'll do it I got it no I got it okay no problem no problem and then the thing that you said about your eight-year-old yeah like I'm they're like, who the hell do you say? You think I'm a bank? Who do you think I am? And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, wait a minute. They think you are who you said you are. They think you are who you used to be. Like they have a reason to expect this from you. And maybe, maybe they can still expect it. Maybe you can take a nap and they can still expect it, but maybe you have to change the expectation. And this I feel is why we end up robbed of power in our world is that we set a precedent. We set an expectation, whether it's from our people pleasing or whether from something that was authentic for us years ago. And now I can no longer live up to that standard. And so I feel like I'm being held hostage in my life.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yes.

Mel Robbins: And I think you know that this is true in any moment where you start resenting...

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure.

Mel Robbins: People that you care about.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Or something that you used to love.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: And this framework is so helpful because I always say it's like, okay, the process is broken or this has happened. But I realize that there are ways in which I've behaved in the past that just don't work. They just don't work. And I was laughing to myself when you were kind of talking about how they keep moving the mark for adulthood. And I'm thinking about the fact that our youngest of three just graduated from high school and everyone's like, "Oh, how do you feel about being an empty nester?" I'm like, "You mean the birds leave in the nest?" As far as I'm aware, they fly back, they call more. The problems are just more expensive.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah, the problems are more expensive.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. Nobody's leaving anywhere.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yes.

Mel Robbins: But when I was growing up, it's like, oh my gosh, you turn 18 and now, you know what I mean? 18, 18, 18. But honey, we hit 18 and it's just not, it's not giving what it was supposed to give.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Well, we got to change the precedent.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah, we do.

Mel Robbins: In terms of how we're going to be in the next chapter. Oh, I got so much out of that. Thank you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: My pleasure. Thank you.

Mel Robbins: I want to take a quick break. And while you're listening to our sponsors, I want you to take a minute and please share this with somebody that you love and don't go anywhere because Sarah and I will be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us.

[Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend Mel Robbins and you and I are here with the extraordinary Sarah Jakes Roberts. Sarah, I read that when this all started happening, you had to dare to believe in yourself.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Why is it a dare?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Well, when you have spent more time doubting yourself than believing in yourself, it's not an easy transition. I cringe when I see people are like, "Just take the leap, take the jump." It's hard. It is really, really hard because I've only known one way of being, one way of seeing myself. And now you're telling me like, I'm this big, bad, bold person and I just need to step into it and run with it. And like, I can't do it. It is a dare. It is not something that comes easily, but it is something that gradually picks up momentum. And so I try to challenge people like one, like, let's start, let's create this vision. Like, who is this person who you believe is within your reach to become? You open the cupboard. You know what you're working with. Who is it that you believe you can become from here? And how do we begin to gradually introduce that person to your life? It is a dare, but you don't have to go from where you are right now to that person overnight. It is an introduction. For those who you're in intimate relationship with, it's the ability to say, "You know what? That precedent that I set, the way that I have been showing up, it doesn't necessarily feel honest anymore. And I want you to know the most honest version of myself and maybe things will change a little bit." You know, I'm married. I don't want to write a book that empowers someone to be like, "You know what, I'm going to change and whether they can get with it or not" when it's someone who...

Mel Robbins: Yeah, exactly.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: You know what I mean? Like that's... you might want to keep that person around. Maybe they haven't done anything to you, but you still want to be authentic. You get to introduce who you are to that person. Like, actually, I kind of want to go back to school or I want to start a business or I kind of think I might be an artist. And so I bought a few things and I'd appreciate bringing you along on this journey with me. It is an introduction. And then you look up and you realize, wow, I have transformed. But transformation is a process. And so I would say to take a little dare, a baby dare, recognizing that with each little dare, we look up and we have been transformed.

Mel Robbins: In the work that you're doing, have you noticed that there's a particular dare or a particular change? You know what I mean? Even if it's just getting up earlier and creating some ritual to start your day, or if it's moving your body, or if it's time for yourself, is there one thing that you could offer based on all of the work that you've done that you see? This really does help start the ball rolling toward the light.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I think the one thing that we can do is to speak who we are seeking to become in our world and atmosphere and to give it language. When we give it language, whether it's to ourselves, but I think especially to other people, that we begin to stretch our environment out to make room for who we're going to become. So if I can give you a practical example, everyone who knows me knows like I'm introverted. I like to be at home. I love to be at home. It is my favorite thing to do.

Mel Robbins: I want to see your home now. I'm like, this might be... I love it.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: What you really want to see are my blankets and pillows because that's where I do my best work.

Mel Robbins: Because we're going to nap together. I have to come over to your husband and take a nap.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So when I started speaking and touring and stuff, someone sent me an invitation to do something globally. And someone turned it down on my behalf. They're like, "She's never going to do it. She likes to be at home." And I had to own this fact that like, yes, I do like being at home, but I am really intrigued by exploring what God's doing in my life. And I do not want to deflect opportunities because I have allowed people to believe something about me that is no longer true. And so we laughed about that. Like, "Oh, I'm so glad you turned down... yeah, you know, I love being at home." I circled back to that person. I'm like, "Actually, I just want you to know that it would actually be a dream to travel the world and to be able to do what I do with other people. And so if something like that comes up again, I just want you to know that I'm open for it." I think that we have to create openings for who we are becoming. And sometimes that's with our language. Sometimes that's with us having communication with other people. But I think the most powerful thing you can do is to back it up, to start putting a down payment on who you are becoming by using your words, using your language to create space for that person to be rooted in your life.

Mel Robbins: It makes so much sense. It's, again, another tactical example of what it means to spread the light.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Because you're now giving yourself not only permission, but you're giving voice to the scenes in the movie.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: That you are now directing.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: That are going to come.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Let it live outside of you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Let it live outside of you. I love that.

Mel Robbins: Because we, oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. Let it live outside of you. If you let me talk, I'll get it. Go, go.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh my God, because I guess... let it live out. Because, okay, you listen to the podcast, you read the books and it's all living inside of you. You got the tools, you got the inspiration. You've got to let this live outside of you. Part of the reason that you have to let it live outside of you is that when it lives outside of you, it empties you out and makes room for more. But also it creates space outside of you for who you are becoming.

Mel Robbins: That's it. Edit everything else out. Let it live outside of you. Oh my God, I have to make sure that you got that. And I am going to break this down so that you understand the importance of this because this is everything. All of that stuff that you stuffed down inside you, waiting for someday, waiting for permission, waiting to feel ready, waiting to get rid of the shame, waiting for inspiration, waiting for motivation. You just heard Sarah tell you you have to open your mouth and let it live outside of you. And when you do that, oh my god, you create space inside of you for new amazing things to flow in and you also create expansion in space for that thing that you want and who you're becoming to take up space. You are a genius.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Wow.

Mel Robbins: It's so true. I hadn't thought about it in the context of space because it is so painful to live your life with so many hopes and dreams for yourself and to know that there is a bigger possibility for your life. And when you trap it inside of you, it just... I know how awful that feels. And it is so beautiful to think that just starting to say it out loud, daring to believe, that little act of bravery opens up the space inside and creates expansion and room for you to grow into that.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Yeah. I mean, it lets you exhale. Just because you drown trying to keep all of that inside of you. It's hard to breathe. It's hard to believe. It's hard to show up in your world. But when you let it live outside of you, you get to exhale that. And I just want people to understand that nine times out of 10, right? It's not universal, but nine times out of 10, there is more flexibility in your environment than you are aware of. Part of the reason why we can't let it live outside of us is that we think it's going to break our circle. It's going to break our relationship. I got to keep it all inside of me. I've had some people that I've lost along the way, but for the most part, people were excited to go on this journey with me. "Okay, you going back to school? Okay, I'm excited for you. Okay, what are you going to study? Okay, well, I'm going to be praying for you or let me know if you want me to quiz you." You know what I mean? Like, "Oh, I need a break. OK, what can I do to help you with the kids?" You know what I mean? I'm stepping into something. Most people have more flexibility than we give them credit for. But because we let things live inside of us, we never get to experience the richness of the relationships that are connected to us as well. And there is... there always is.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. Wow. Holy cow. You also talk about this idea of versions of you. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Well, I think we have to recognize that just like there's that version of yourself in the past that did something that makes you cringe, like you're no longer that person. Like the reason why you feel the way that you feel about what you went through in your past is because based off of what you know now, you would have made a different choice. And so that's one version of you. And now you're in this version of you. But also there are other versions of you waiting to be unfolded. And you just could have never told me when I was writing that blog that I would also be good at communicating. I don't consider myself a good public speaker. Still?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I think I have a gift now, but it's not like— Thank you for owning it. I do. I think I have a gift, but it's not like, I don't feel it's natural or organic to me to just gravitate to speaking, but it's obviously in me. So there are versions of you waiting to be revealed to you, introduced to you, and released into the world. And you just have to dare to not get caught up in an old version or this present version and recognize that the unfolding of that is not like this deep, hard work. It is owning fully where you are now, letting those things that are inside of you live outside of you so that more expression can come to you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I just look at my life and I feel like I've lived a thousand lives in my 35 years because I've just had all of these different versions. And there's a thousand more coming. I can't wait to meet her. But first we need a nap.

Mel Robbins: Yes, we must rest first. That's how the unfolding happens.

Mel Robbins: You know, I think when you hear the word power, right? You tend to think of something that's unbreakable or in charge. What does power mean to you?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Power is authenticity, resiliency, humility combined. It is a combination. If there were like a nutritional fact that breaks down what power is, it is 100% authenticity, 100% resiliency, and 100% humility. I think many times we think power is just about that resiliency side—I get back up and I don't get knocked down, and that's what makes me powerful. But humility is owning what we do wrong. It's learning our lessons. It's taking ownership of the way that our resiliency can have negative impacts on our friendships and family. Authenticity is recognizing that sometimes I am the beast that's on stage and I'm tearing things up. And then there are other moments where I literally do need to go home. I need to be nurtured. I need to be cared for.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: We're a blended family with six kids. I do a lot of nurturing and that is authentic to me. And then there are other moments where authenticity is I need someone to take care of me and I have to use my words to be the strong friend. This cocktail of authenticity, humility, and resiliency is a flow of power. Power is not a destination. It is a flow in which all three of those things have come together for the confluence of who you are. That confluence will take you anywhere. It works anywhere you place it.

Mel Robbins: I just got this image because, you know, when you see the word power, you think about authority, right? But the way you described it, I actually started to think about it as energy. That it is all these things flowing through you. So it's what's fueling the way that you show up.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: The book is called *Power Moves*. And many times people hear—first of all, it's *Power Moves: Ignite Your Confidence and Become a Force*. There's not a more intimidating title anywhere.

Mel Robbins: Let's go.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Right? And now let's take a nap. Right? And then go to bed. I think my greatest lesson in sharing the message of the book is power is not a doing. It is a being. And "power moves" is not like, "How do I make a power move?" It is a realization that power is fluid, that power moves. And from that place of flowing in power, from that place of being powerful and allowing power to flow through you—sure, you do some things, but what's most important is the being, the powerful being that you are.

Mel Robbins: I freaking love that. I love thinking about how you can, no matter where you are in your life, begin to allow this power to move through you.

Mel Robbins: Since you have confidence as a subtitle in the book, what does confidence mean to you? And how does somebody who does not feel confident tap into it?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Esther Perel has the definition of confidence that I love the most. I'm going to paraphrase it because I can never do her words justice. But basically, it's like having knowledge of both your gifts and strengths and also your flaws and not being moved in either direction. Confidence is the intentional owning of your existence and identity and the acceptance of it, the contentment of all of who you are and not allowing it to be easily moved or swayed by success nor failure. And having the courage to be okay with that. Not just okay like I settled for okay, but to really embrace that.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I think a lot of times confidence comes down to, "Okay, well, I need a haircut" or "What does the makeup look like?" I was preaching one time, my wig started slipping. I took my wig off—which is worthy of doing a whole nother podcast about—but people were like, "Oh my gosh, how did you do that?" I'm like, I mean, the hair is nice, but it's not who I am. It doesn't define me. I don't wish that it happened, but I'm not going to be afraid to be up here with a wig cap on because most people know this isn't my hair anyway. It's long one day, it's short the next week. I am so okay with who I am that I can step into any moment, no matter how humiliating it may feel on the surface and say, "You know what, this is my truth and I got to step into it." Confidence is not about how I look. Confidence is about who I am on the inside and being able to hold on to that.

Mel Robbins: Amazing. And what I got as you were telling the wig story is that power was moving through you. So you took the authenticity, the resilience, and the humility and you just let that flow through you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure. First of all, I had to.

Mel Robbins: So what happened?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Oh, child.

Mel Robbins: Okay, I got to know now.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Child. Listen. Okay, I'll tell you my most embarrassing story about a stage.

Mel Robbins: Then you tell me yours.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So first of all, we're going to have a lesson in wigs, right? Not my hair, right? So it's not attached to anything. When it's on like this, it's fine. But when you start to do ponytails, there's a certain level of anchoring that you want to have. You want to sew it into some braids. You want to glue it down real good. And she had sewed it on, but she didn't sew deep enough into the braids. It was just sewed onto the wig cap. So the weight of the ponytails held the wig cap.

Mel Robbins: Oh.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And girl. You know, I don't sit through an hour and a half of hair and makeup for my wig to come off. So I'm sitting there and someone's like—this is Black church, right? So we're talking to one another. They're clapping. I've gone to some spaces where it's pretty quiet, people are just receiving. We're having a conversation. It's not uncommon for people to be waving their hands and stepping in the air. But then I saw this one woman. She was like pulling. She was like pulling, trying to signal to you?

Mel Robbins: Trying to signal to you?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I was like, "I've never seen that one before, but get it, girl." And then I went to the other side and someone else was like—I was like, "Is my wig?" Because I'm sweating. I'm hot in the glue and the wig. And so it starts sweating. I said, "Listen," I knew I did math real fast. I'm like, "The weight of this ponytail—I could yank it, but it's going to fall back again because it's not secure to anything."

Mel Robbins: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: So I was in the middle of my message. I'm not going to stop preaching to go run off stage because my wig is falling off. So I took it off. And then I'm sitting there with the wig cap. And I was like, "This is actually happening." On any given Sunday, there's like 50,000 people streaming online. My father wasn't there. My husband was out of town. And now I'm sitting on stage at this traditional church where I was pregnant as a teenager. Now I'm this grown up who's overcome with a wig cap on. I take the wig off. I throw it to my sister and I go back to preaching. I really was just prepared to be the laughingstock of the internet. People got some jokes, but for the most part, women were like, "I felt so much liberation when you did that. It felt like you can just show up in any given moment with the truth of who you are and it'll be okay."

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I felt confident. I felt like—I don't know—it helped a lot of people. I spent weeks studying for this message and me taking my wig off was the most powerful moment of the whole sermon because it gave people permission to be authentic, whatever that authenticity looked like, and to stand flat-footed in it. So yeah, I took it off.

Mel Robbins: Well, the message is always bigger than the mess. Always.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: And it taught me a valuable lesson. On the back end, we had just recently relocated to Dallas. My husband and I, we were living in Los Angeles. While we were in LA, my husband has this incredible community. It's vibrant. It's the kind of place where a girl who got pregnant at 13, had her baby at 14, could go and be like, "Girl, please, we got you. We love you. Show us what you know about God." That's where I got a lot of my confidence as a speaker and as someone who preaches. So when we went back to Dallas to help my father in leadership, I'm like, "I don't know if who I was there works here." Right. So now I'm questioning, does power move? Does that same power that exists here, will it flow into where I am now? Internally, I'm dealing with these insecurities, this uncertainty.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: That Sunday, when I took my wig off, it really was a message for me from God that the most authentic version of who you are has been anointed to help from Dallas, from this church, from this platform. If you will just be who you are, I will take care of the rest. This moment that would have been something that most people laugh at became this thing that helps so many people feel comfortable in their own skin to own who they were. I looked at this lady—she had thrown her wig off and it was on stage. I'm like, "Now mine was slipping, that's why I took mine off. Why is yours on the altar?" But she's like, "Solidarity. Tired of pretending. Tired of pretending to have it all together." It was this moment where people are like, "This is who I am. Accept it." It really was a blessing in disguise.

Mel Robbins: It was a direct message to you.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: For sure. There are no accidents.

Mel Robbins: He can text me next time.

Mel Robbins: Well, and you know, on the theme of power, why would you even question? Of course power moves. Because if you try to block a power surge, it will blow everything up in its wake.

Mel Robbins: Me and you, we could talk for a long time. Because when we are doing something new, no matter how much we have mastered in the past, there is an opportunity for insecurity, doubt, and failure to convince us that we are not equipped to step into something new. I wrote this book coming off the heels of that moment because if we can really grasp this concept that power is fluid, then the power that we experience in whatever stage of our life that has passed, it flows into where we are now. It may have a different expression. It may be in a different city. You may have been divorced and now you're married again. You may have been hands-on with the kids and now you're learning who you are now that you no longer have children and you can feel fragile in the process, but power flows. To be able to ask ourselves, "I know what power looked like then, but what does power look like for me now?" is one of the greatest questions we can ask ourselves because it honors the fact that there is power in this moment. I just have to figure out how to tap into it and to flow with what power looks like now.

Mel Robbins: I got to tell you something. I feel I have to tell you this. I think you know this and I feel permission to say this to you this bluntly because you are a woman of deep faith who has a direct connection to God. But when you talked about getting pregnant at 13 in the middle of the kind of purity culture, I just had this unbelievable sentence in my head that was meant to happen for you to disrupt that culture and for you to be the embodiment of an entirely different definition of a godly woman.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Thank you.

Mel Robbins: I think we needed another definition.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: You had to have thought that before.

Mel Robbins: No, no. Well, because you continue to do it as everything unfolds. You continue to open the door for your entire community to envision what it means to be a woman in an entirely different way. And it's not about one version. It's about the freedom and the power that flows through you when you just are you. That you're not defined by what you do. You're not defined by the mistakes that you made. You're certainly not defined by whether or not you have your virginity or not. That you can literally be who you want to be beyond gender, beyond the wig, beyond any mistakes that you've made. And you are the embodiment of that.

Mel Robbins: As somebody that's just meeting you and that has watched your life from afar and is inspired by your work, there's no doubt in my mind that that is a thousand percent the work that is getting done through your life. You're not aware of it, but it's very clear in the context of your entire life story and your mission and the work that you have just been called to put out into the world that that is actually what's happening. It makes so much make sense to me.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: It does.

Mel Robbins: There is no other explanation.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: When you think about how much faith you have and you talk about being the embodiment of something and the intentionality of something—let's just stay with the word intentionality. What if you did believe, because I know you and I both believe this, that even those things that were so cringy in the moment, we know when we get to the end of the movie and we look back at the entire thing that happened, everything had an order to it. I think one of the most incredible skills in life that you have, that I know that I have, that I am trying to help other people have, is the ability to both stand in this moment in this frame of your movie and look back and say, "Oh, of course, all of those things led here. And of course, I would never be here holding the hand of the little me saying, 'Take this all in. Look at how far we've come without that thing that I once hated.'" And now I have created room to love and be compassionate for it. But I can also stand in this frame and look ahead and know that this is leading somewhere extraordinary.

Mel Robbins: And that is what I felt compelled to tell you. The idea of we needed another version of what it means to be a woman of God in a culture where there's literally one road, one path, and for the undeniable grace. There's just no reason for the swell of influence. There's no reason.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Actually, there is a reason.

Mel Robbins: Well, there is. Yeah, I know.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: That's what I'm saying. I think the intentionality of God to, in the midst of while one thing is rampant, be like, "You know what? I am going to allow this to happen. It's not going to make sense to anyone. But in 20 years, it's going to make sense because I'm going to use all of these things to create this version of Sarah that is relatable and touchable for a generation that's been lost." And you can't actually be relatable and untouchable without that.

Mel Robbins: And the other piece of this that really struck me is the word undeniable. And when you said there's only one path, that's actually not true. We've just put the infinite other paths in a cupboard. And that is why I love doing what I do. And I love what Woman Evolve is because there are all of these women with all of these different paths that have been stuffed in the cupboard. And now they're beginning to believe that maybe there's another path. Maybe there's not just one path. Maybe based off of where I come from in Chicago and South Africa, maybe we all have a unique path and I don't have to try and fit myself into this one way of being or disqualify myself because I don't fit in this. That is what makes Woman Evolve what it is.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I see that because you just also said there's just no other explanation. I often think about that in my own story. Facing bankruptcy, struggling with anxiety. I have some dumb idea when I am drunk on bourbon to launch myself out of bed like a rocket so I can move fast enough to beat the anxiety. And the series of unexplainable events and coincidences. There's no other explanation than this divine order. So I am so proud of myself for saying it to you and actually letting it live outside of me so that it could create space for you.

Mel Robbins: If the person listening takes just one thing from the extraordinary amount of wisdom that you have poured into us today, and they focus on one action, what do you want them to do?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I would say to open that cabinet. Open that cabinet. Look at every single ingredient of you and trust that every ingredient is going to be used in the full edit of your story. For those of you who know a little bit about cooking, you know that there are some ingredients that we buy thinking that we're going to use them and then it gets dusty because we never actually used it. There are probably some things that you have allowed to get dusty—some dreams, some gifts, some memories that you like that they have dust on them because it makes it harder for you to see them. I would tell you to dust those ingredients off, to put them out on the counter, and to start dreaming.

Mel Robbins: What are your parting words?

Sarah Jakes Roberts: Secure your wig.

Mel Robbins: I love you. I love you and thank you for being with Sarah Jakes Roberts and me today. I wanted to be sure to tell you, in case no one else does, that I love you and I know Sarah loves you too, for sure. And we believe in you. Open up the cabinet and go cook up a freaking five-star meal. I'll talk to you in a few days.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: There was a lot in that. I know that's why I had to write the book. I was like, this feels worthy of unpacking. Writing 60,000 words is—

Mel Robbins: Oh, you know I'm in the middle of writing my next book. I need a nap.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I'm praying for you.

Mel Robbins: Cause it's not like you just write. Can you please double down on the prayer? I don't think you're praying hard enough.

Sarah Jakes Roberts: I would get on a plane for you. I will feed you. As long as I get a blanket and a nap.

Mel Robbins: Girl, I will give you the best blanket you've ever had. It'll be down and have feathers in it. You'll be spitting feathers out of your mouth.

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. No, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. This podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.