--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This particular episode of Today Explained features some troubling descriptions of sex and body modification. You might want to ask the kids to leave the room.
--:-- [Sound of a chuckle]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My name is Josh Block. I'm the host and co-producer of CBC podcast Uncover Escaping NXIVM. And I came upon this story, actually, when I ran into this old childhood friend of mine, Sarah Edmondson. And she told me that she had just left a cult.
--:-- Josh Block: And it's so hard to explain to people why I felt like I couldn't. I had known that she was part of this strange, what I thought was a self-help organization, but I did not know the extent of what I would later find out.
--:-- Josh Block: And yeah, you're right, we didn't speak the whole time during this. You didn't really know me then, but you did know me when I was 18, and you knew me when I was 16, and when I was three. And she told me on that first visit that she had been branded on her body with the initials of the group's leader, Keith Raniere.
--:-- Josh Block: While I'm talking about it, it's just mixed with all this, like, regret and shame of, like, when you think about making a stupid decision, this feels like the worst, stupidest, most awful decision. And that somehow that experience was a wake-up call for her.
--:-- Josh Block: Keith Raniere has built up this mythology around himself. He claims that he is a super genius, that he was speaking in full sentences by the age of one, could read at the age of two, was a judo champion and a piano prodigy.
--:-- Josh Block: And it turns out to be true that in 1989, he took this high IQ test, this super high IQ test, and he scored incredibly high. And the Guinness Book of World Records listed him as one of the smartest men in the world.
--:-- Josh Block: And he used that as a calling card. Yes, well, sometimes it even amazes me. Before starting NXIVM, he actually ran this multi-level marketing company called Consumers Buy Line, where he sold household appliances and vacation packages.
--:-- Josh Block: We've been able to concentrate all this purchasing power, literally hundreds of thousands of buyers, to get a better deal from the sellers. That company was later, a number of attorneys general ended up claiming the company was a pyramid scheme and the whole thing was shut down.
--:-- Josh Block: And not long after that, NXIVM was born. But now instead of selling fridges, they're selling self-help. Our main emphasis, our main belief is to have people experience more joy in their lives. And from that, all sorts of interesting effects appear to happen.
--:-- Josh Block: So NXIVM offers these expensive self-help workshops. Some of them are one day long. Some of them are five days. Some of them are 16 day. Over the course of the next few years, Keith Raniere starts to build out this curriculum.
--:-- Josh Block: All the curriculum in the organization is designed by him. And they actually were remarkably successful in attracting powerful and successful people to come take their programs.
--:-- Josh Block: I mean, they had, you know, eventually the son of a former Mexican president, Emiliano Salinas, come join them. They had two members of the Bromfman family, the billionaire Seagram family that owns the Seagram liquor fortune, join them.
--:-- Josh Block: And then they had actors like Allison Mack from Smallville. When Clark was toasting us, I looked over at you and you had the most wonderful smile on your face. Grace Park and Kristen Kruk joined them.
--:-- Josh Block: And by being able to draw in the successful people, they were able to use that as a calling card to recruit others. I taught Wednesday nights and it was bustling. Like it was cool.
--:-- Josh Block: Like it was, you know, the people meeting before and after and like doing projects and networking. And yeah, there's like 200, there's like 225 students.
--:-- Josh Block: They claimed that they would help you have these kind of epiphanies and be able to achieve things, whether it was improving your relationships or your self-esteem or whether it was actually achieving professional goals.
--:-- Josh Block: I mean, they really saw an alignment between financial success and self-help as well. They started their first center in Albany, New York, but then they were able to open satellite centers in Seattle, in Vancouver, in San Francisco, in Mexico.
--:-- Josh Block: They opened two centers in New York City as well. So the organization grew. And over the course of 20 years, around 17,000 people took a NXIVM course.
--:-- Josh Block: The nature of the organization shifted, and even the public image of Keith Raniere shifted over that time. So, you know, Sarah Edmondson tells me that when she first joined the group, she was in it for 12 years.
--:-- Josh Block: But for many years, her and others in the organization were told that Keith Raniere was this renunciate, this kind of monk-like figure who had renounced all his connections to material goods, that he was like a celibate as far as she knew.
--:-- Josh Block: I mean, she never knew him as a sexual being. That started to shift, you know, later on in the organization. It started to come out both through rumor, but even in the curriculum.
--:-- Josh Block: This idea that men are actually naturally non-monogamous and that women are naturally monogamous and that it's okay for men to have multiple partners.
--:-- Josh Block: And around that time that that was emerging in the NXIVM curriculum, this secret group within NXIVM was formed called DOS. DOS was pitched as a kind of sorority for women and that they were going to be able to take their self and personal development to the next level.
--:-- Josh Block: That women are weak We have no character. Men have all the character. We need to learn character. We have no discipline. We're emotional, and that emotion drives us and takes us off our track when we're committed to something.
--:-- Josh Block: That's why we bail on things. We're flaky. So women have to learn how to humiliate themselves, each other. And that's what DOS was.
--:-- Josh Block: And that in order to join it, these women had to give over collateral that would be potentially devastating to their life if it was ever released.
--:-- Josh Block: So it was nude photos or videos or confessions that you were having an affair or hated your mother. These were things that you had to give to join the group.
--:-- Josh Block: And then once you were in, you had to continue to give over collateral every month. What the FBI says is that, in fact, this whole sub-organization called DOS was actually being run by Keith Raniere.
--:-- Josh Block: And he was using it to instruct women in the group to have sexual encounters with him, as well as having them do all kinds of labor for free.
--:-- Josh Block: It was in this group as well that people like Sarah Edmondson, the woman that I grew up with, were branded on their body with his initials.
--:-- Josh Block: I'm the first one to arrive. And I know that I'm going to an initiation and I'm going to meet what she's called my sisters.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Come upstairs and get naked. Take off all your clothes and wait here. I'm like, what? And she's like, Sarah, you have to get over your body issues.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Like, it's just me and women you know. It's going to be fine.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Sarah says that when that branding ceremony happened, it was at a time she didn't know Keith was at all involved in the group, and she was told this brand was going to be a symbol for the four elements.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: And then, like, in my head also, like, Sarah, you said you were going to do this. You committed. You always back out. You don't follow through. You know, you're looking for the back door, just like Keith says women do.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Like just fucking do it and just fuck just fucking do it and I did I lay on the table and I just try to lay as still as possible because I saw what happened to the other women when they moved and how much longer it took
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: I just went into like the most loving best place that I could while the most searing awful pain was being dragged across my body like a fucking fire flame across my skin.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Part of her wake-up call was discovering that, in fact, it wasn't that simple. It was his initials.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Yeah, but right now I have two initials next to my vagina. I have two initials beside my vagina. Everyone's freaking out. I should have been freaking out. How did I miss this? How did I miss this? It's fucked up.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Now it made sense. Like, he's created this faux women's empowerment program within the structure of NXIVM to maintain loyalty and to feed his sex addiction.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: You know, like, that's just so not what I thought I was a part of.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Almost since the start of NXIVM, people have been leaving the group and coming forward and going to the media and going to authorities and telling them that something is not right here.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: I mean, there were articles coming out as early as 2003 about Keith Raniere and what they were doing and raising the alarm about his treatment of women and about the amount of money that people were paying to take these kind of courses.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: But that being said, things really only unraveled for them in 2017 when Sarah Edmondson leaves NXIVM and she goes to the press.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: The night of the branding, where did that happen? The actual branding itself was at Alison Mack's home.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Alison Mack's home. And there's been a lot said about the fact that the brand shows Keith Raniere's initials, K.R. They also show Alison Mack's initials, A.M. It appears to be that way.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: She goes to the New York Times, and it was an article about her experience. And not long after that, the FBI launched an investigation, and in their indictment they said, we launched this investigation because of that New York Times article.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Keith Raniere leaves the country, he goes to Mexico, they issue an arrest warrant, and they track him down, they arrest him, and then not long after that, they arrest five other members of NXIVM's inner circle, a lot of the higher-ranked members, including the actress Allison Mack from Smallville, Claire Bronfman, the heiress to the Seagram family fortune, Nancy Salzman, the president of the company, and her daughter Lauren Salzman, and then a long-standing bookkeeper named Kathy Russell.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: So then the government starts to build a case against NXIVM, and the five co-accused are all given sort of various kinds of bail conditions.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Keith Raniere is held in a jail waiting trial. And as we march towards the trial, one by one, members of his inner circle, the other co-accused, plead guilty.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Lauren Salzman admitted to conspiracy at a hearing this week. Claire Bronfman, the heiress to the Seagram Liquor Fortune, walked out of federal court today after pleading guilty to conspiracy and fraud charges.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: Surrounded by cameras, Alison Mack made her way into a Brooklyn courthouse where she tearfully pleaded guilty to racketeering charges.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: And these are people, you know, the five co-accused are people that have been in this organization for years and years and dedicated their life to it and to him.
--:-- Sarah Edmondson: And eventually, when the trial begins Keith Raniere is standing trial alone Keith Raniere goes on trial after the break.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you've ever watched the television program Adam Ruins Everything on TruTV and thought to yourself, man, I wish this guy had a podcast, you're in luck. Adam Conover has a podcast. It's called Factually with Adam Conover.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the show, Adam talks to Pulitzer Prize-winning authors and professors and other very smart people to better understand the truth behind big issues like homelessness, gun control, and technology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Factually is sitting somewhere in your podcast app right now. If you're connected to the G's or the Wi-Fi's, you can probably find it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you can subscribe so you never miss an episode.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Josh, Keith Raniere is standing trial in Brooklyn right now for his involvement with NXIVM. What exactly is he being charged with?
--:-- Josh Block: So Keith Raniere is facing a range of charges from sex trafficking to forced labor to wire fraud to racketeering.
--:-- Josh Block: Under that racketeering charge, which is kind of an umbrella charge, he is facing child pornography as well.
--:-- Josh Block: So it turns out that the FBI, when they seized materials, discovered that some of his lovers were actually underage.
--:-- Josh Block: One of them, they say, was 15 years old and he had nude photos of her on his hard drive.
--:-- Josh Block: He has pleaded not guilty to all these charges.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How much prison time could he be facing if he's found guilty on all these charges?
--:-- Josh Block: He'd be facing life in prison.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've been at the trial in Brooklyn. What have been some of the more surprising elements to come out of it?
--:-- Josh Block: Some of the details that are coming out are, you know, almost more disturbing than what we had known about before.
--:-- Josh Block: Claims that Keith pressured many, many women to have abortions, including this one Mexican family of which all three sisters were engaged in a sexual relationship with Keith Raniere.
--:-- Josh Block: One of those sisters was underage at the time that relationship started. A second one of those sisters committed what they call an ethical breach where she was supposed to remain monogamous with Keith Raniere but apparently had a crush on someone she shouldn't have.
--:-- Josh Block: And they confined her to a room for two years.
--:-- Josh Block: There's also just remarkable claims about what Keith said he could do, that he was able to change the weather with his mind.
--:-- Josh Block: And, you know, and that was certainly not the public facing side of the organization, but something that the members had to reconcile with as well, that we are a science based organization, but our leader can also change the weather with his mind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is probably my 10th client who is the smartest man in the world. And so, you know, he's smart. He's up there. Smartest in the world. I don't know. You know, there's a lot of smart guys in the world. Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's the defense's tactic here?
--:-- Josh Block: They claim that they're going to show how Keith Raniere's record has always been one of selflessness and help.
--:-- Josh Block: They also say, look, the people that were part of this organization were adults. They're well-to-do adults. They're adults that, for the most part, are educated.
--:-- Josh Block: You know, these are not poor, put-upon people, you know, who are desperate for a better life and will make choices against their self-interest.
--:-- Josh Block: These are actresses and models, people who have successful businesses and have aspirations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He said to the jury, like, you might find this stuff edgy or weird or unconventional, but that doesn't rise to the level of illegality.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: People entered this organization eyes wide open.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the co-accused, Lauren Salzman, and this is actually one of Sarah's best friends in the organization, and in fact the one who recruited her into that secret women's group DOS.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She testified at the trial and corroborated this claim that not only was Keith Raniere at the top of that secret women's group DOS, but he gave very specific instructions about how that organization would operate and even how the branding ceremony would operate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think doing the actual brand in an orderly fashion, each of the seven strokes, having a certain ritualization.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In fact, the courtroom heard an audio clip of Keith Raniere on a walk with Alison Mack describing all these details of how this should take place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Each of the strokes has something that's said with them and may be repeated after the stroke is done.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Right down to how they should be held and what the position should be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It probably should be a more vulnerable position. Hang on the back. Legs slightly spurred. Legs spread straight. Like feet being held to the side of the table.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hands probably above the head being held. Almost like tied down. Like a sacrificial whatever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the person should ask to be branded. Okay. Should say, please brand me. It would be an honor or something like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: An honor I want to wear for the rest of my life. I don't know. Okay.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're also, of course, videoing it and videoing it from different angles or whatever gives collateral.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mm-hmm.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It feels like high time we talk about the C-word.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are they talking in this trial about whether or not NXIVM was a cult?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean the FBI has made that claim that the group is a cult It comes up a lot in the courtroom partially because being a cult first of all is not illegal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It also a bit of a mushy term.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the charges that they brought against Keith Raniere are not to do with it being a cult.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's not necessary to prove that the organization was a cult. But so much of what we're talking about here at least feels like it could have only been possible with the kinds of tactics that we associate with cults, brainwashing, sort of groupthink, you know, this one genius leader at the top who's going to revolutionize some element of society.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's so interesting because when I saw him for the first time and I saw photos of him, he doesn't sort of strike me as this like larger than life charismatic figure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the thing that we heard again and again about him is he has this remarkable ability to listen, that when you're talking to him, you feel like you're the only person in the room and that he gets you, that he understands you in a way that other people don't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he remembers stuff about you. He remembers your dreams and your desires. And when you see him again, he's able to access that information.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As individuals, we strive to break through a type of existential isolation. We want to touch someone. We want to know that other people have souls. We want to experience this. We want to experience connection.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I certainly have spoken to cult experts, and for them, they see thousands of these kinds of organizations that all seem to operate from the same playbook.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there tends to always be a destructive figure, charismatic figure at the center of these. There's not a lot of tolerance for questioning or critical thought.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's an attempt to have members dissociate themselves from family and friends who are critical of the group.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They often use tactics of sleep deprivation and lack of food to keep people disoriented.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's a hierarchical structure. I mean, there's a whole list of conditions that seem to be similar between this group and other organizations that have used these same tactics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You made an entire show about this. What made you want to spend so much time examining this group and this guy?
--:-- Josh Block: Was it that your childhood friend got caught up in it?
--:-- Josh Block: I mean, I think one of the biggest questions for me, like right after running into Sarah Edmondson, was here is a woman that grew up in the same community as me and the same level of education.
--:-- Josh Block: How is it that one day she signs up for a self-help course and then 12 years later is being branded on her body with this guy's initials?
--:-- Josh Block: And I think it's a story about everyone's vulnerability or fallibility to these kinds of destructive ideologies.
--:-- Josh Block: They don't just operate in small organizations in upstate New York. In fact, the cult experts that we spoke to say the same thing that's happening there is happening in a terrorist group or in a country like Nazi Germany.
--:-- Josh Block: You know, one woman I spoke to said, it's not that every single person is vulnerable to being recruited into NXIVM.
--:-- Josh Block: And in fact, NXIVM had designed its curriculum to very quickly weed out people who would be too critical of it.
--:-- Josh Block: But at the right moment in someone's life or the wrong moment in someone's life, at a certain crossroads of a great disruption where there's big change in your life, any person is susceptible to being drawn into a destructive ideology and a destructive group.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How's your friend Sarah doing now? Now that she's out of NXIVM, now that she's spoken out about NXIVM, now that the whole world knows her story?
--:-- Josh Block: I mean, I think it's a long process for her leaving, and even over the almost two years now that she's been out, I've seen how her thinking has evolved.
--:-- Josh Block: I think she's still trying to figure out what, if anything, was useful that she learned in that group.
--:-- Josh Block: And she says that she is thinking about ways that she might be able to use her experience to supporting people in similar situations who are trying to leave groups like this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have really good days and then I have really bad days. And the bad days are bad and very dark. I don't even have words.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's just a lot of embarrassment, a lot of regret. A lot of shame that I missed the red flags. And then I brought so many people into it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Josh Block hosts Uncover, escaping NXIVM for the CBC. A lot of the tape of Sarah Edmondson you heard in today's episode comes from his show, and you can find it wherever you find your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram for him. This one's called Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Irene Noguchi, Bridget McCarthy, Noam Hassenfeld, Afim Shapiro, Amina Alsadi, and Halima Shah make the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jillian Weinberger and Britt Hansen helped this week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Siona Petros is leaving us today. She was a great intern.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder is still with us. He could probably use an intern.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher, and we are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
